colette Tvedt| Episode 07

Colette Tvedt  0:01  
It made my life so much easier. You know, it's always easier to be yourself than something that you think you should be.

 

Aaron Nelson  0:18  
Welcome back to another episode of Sanctuary in the Jungle. I'm your host, Aaron Nelson. Joining us this week is Attorney Colette Tvedt. Any trial attorney, knows that even with years of training, finding your voice in the courtroom is a long journey. Colette dreamed of being a public defender when she was just 10 years old. In this episode, she shares how even with decades of enthusiastic dreaming, discovering your style takes time. Over the years, Colette has done private and public defense work across the country. She also served as the director of public defense training and reform for NACDL. And through all these experiences, she's done more than just find her own voice. She's built spaces for other attorneys to find theirs as well. At its core, our work is about helping our clients belong and to be our best, we attorneys have to feel like we belong too. That's always been our hope here at Sanctuary. So please join me in welcoming

Colette Tvedt. Colette, thank you so much for joining us. 

 

Colette Tvedt  1:18  
Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:20  
Yeah, absolutely. You're up there in Denver today. Is that right?

 

Colette Tvedt  1:25  
It's very cold here. We had our first big snow two days ago. But yes, I am here in Denver, Colorado. And I'm skiing tomorrow.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:34  
Wonderful! We've got some snow here in Hudson as well, so I'm going to probably have to go out and shovel after the episode, which is fine. Again, welcome. I know we're going to get into your chronology here as we go along. You've represented humans in many different places across the United States, but you have a fascinating story that started way back when you were 10 years old. As the story I've heard goes you, you wrote an essay when you were 10, which included the line, I want to go to court to witness what I hope will be my future. Tell me about that.

 

Colette Tvedt  2:08  
It's right here. It's on my desk. When I moved from Massachusetts to Seattle, my mother had kept all my childhood memories in like a box. And I was going through it, and I saw an essay that I wrote when I was in fifth grade, 11 years old, and it was entitled, "My Future Job", and it discussed that I wanted to be a public defender and represent people. And you know, the great, I think it says one of the great, "it will give me great satisfaction to have defended an innocent person. All the steps that would lead to an actual defense seem very exciting to me at this time. I hope that I will be lucky enough to go to court someday soon and witness what I hope will be my future". And I don't know why I wrote that. I- you know, it's, it's, it was something I've always wanted to be a public defender since I was a little kid. I have no lawyers in my family. I was grew up in a very small provincial town, so I either I was a criminal in a prior life, or I was drawn to helping people, which was kind of instilled in me by my parents. So I- the journey has, I've been to court thousands of times now in many different jurisdictions. So I think I've, I've succeeded.

 

Aaron Nelson  3:28  
Yeah, well, now that we're, you know, here in the future of that 10 year-old's essay, you know, looking back, well, if you could, what would you tell 10 year-old Colette?

 

Colette Tvedt  3:40  
You have no idea what you're in for. Colette, you should study science and biology, because you're going to be doing forensics and by- you know, DNA and understanding how the brain works and how understanding what fingerprints mean, and understanding technology that you're studying for mass surveillance. And there's so many, you know, things about our job and ballistics, and so I, the 10 year old, I would say, pay more attention and study your science, because someday you're going to be cross examining a DNA expert, which probably was not even invented when I was in fifth grade. But anyway, you know, so that would be my advice. And you know, and have fun, because it's going to be a glorious ride.

 

Aaron Nelson  4:28  
Yeah, what I find remarkable, even about your comments now to 10 year old, is no hint of regret to imagine that our 10 year old selves like nailed it. That our 10 year old selves, like, we're able to predict this in a way that our future selves are like, you got it right. That's exactly right. That, to me, is just remarkable.

 

Colette Tvedt  4:50  
It's a, you know, it's, I always say that it's the gift that keeps giving. I- Every, with every case, you get better. And it's in this profession, you're never at the penacle. I mean, there's great lawyers everywhere, right? But in every trial, and you know this, Aaron. I know this. You know, we talk about this with Keith, you learn something new in every trial, and whether it's something about a case or the Constitution or a law or how you can better approach juries, it's like, so exciting, because every day is different. Every client is different. So, you know, it's a, it's a career that is so multifaceted that continues to grow with every case and every interaction.

 

Aaron Nelson  5:29  
Yeah, well, let's, let's go back and talk about that a little bit about the 10 year old. What do you think I know you don't have a lawyer in your background, and now, you know, looking back, you don't know why, but just in general, what do you think were some of your inspirations for writing that?

 

Colette Tvedt  5:44  
You know, what I would say is that my parents, we- I grew up in a, in a, in a household which really valued being kind to anyone. You work hard, be kind, be kind. You know, and my parents were very much involved in things that were going on at our church and things that were going on in the community. My mother, we were going to the soup kitchen. We would- my mother was always fundraising, and my parents would always say, you know, "we have to give respect for those that are really struggling, and people that are poor and people that are, you know, unhoused and have mental health issues, we have to never be judgmental and just to, you know, be kind to other folks". So I think part of the people that we pursue this profession as public defenders, for a reason. 

 

Aaron Nelson  5:45  
Yeah. 

 

Colette Tvedt  5:45  
Everyone in my office is has these qualities of of fearlessness, of compassion, of passion, of kindness and empathy. And so I think that it may- I don't know if it was seeing something on TV. I don't know if it was a discussion with my father. I don't know if it was somehow, some Perry Mason, you know, program that I saw, but it was someone did once say to me, you're like the cheerleader for public defense, Colette. And I started to laugh. I didn't take offense to that, because I love this work so much, and it was ingrained in me since I was as long as I can remember, obviously, fifth grade, but maybe earlier.

 

Aaron Nelson  5:45  
Yeah, just to serve others. You- were you- were you doing that? Did you have opportunities in other capacities to serve others when you were younger?

 

Colette Tvedt  5:59  
Yeah. I mean, like, like I said, in schools, like we were always volunteering. I was like a candy striper when I was, you know, in junior high school. My mother was always taking me around to some of the places where she was doing food drives and clothing drives. So yeah, I think that that and you're just- I really studied and wanted to be a public defender once I hit high school. So I- I did go to observe court when I was in high school, and my father was a banker, and one of the people on his board of directors was an attorney that did general practice, and so I interned at that law firm when I was a senior in high school, when I went to college, my last year of college, I was- oh, sorry.

 

Aaron Nelson  8:19  
What did that look like just as a, as a high schooler, you know? I mean, sometimes we'll have interns here, and I'm always wondering, like, what does that look like as a- as a 16 or a 17 year old, about what they're seeing us doing. But here you are. You had the opportunity to see that. What you see, what do you feel when you were, when you there in a law office at that age?

 

Colette Tvedt  8:36  
I mean, a lot of filing, right? It was during paper files. I was doing a lot of, like, grunt work and getting coffee and doing other stuff. But I remember being invited to, like, brainstorming sessions with the partners of the firm. Just sit you know, you have, we have interns that sit back. You know, I learned what confidentiality was. I like, I wouldn't even go home and talk to my mother and father about what happened at work. Yeah, I've watched court cases, PI cases. They did some, some criminal but I didn't observe any criminal cases, but they did a lot of, you know, accident cases. And so that was really interesting to see how they prepared for-for cases, and writing their questions out and telling us a story, right? So that was what my first real exposure, and then going to court and watching people that I was working with was really cool. I was like, it's like, almost like being on a stage right? You, you get to talk to these people and to the importance of my- the other things my kids will always say to me, my parents ingrained in me "Be kind and articulate and, you know, and always study your vocabulary". So times tables and vocabulary. And I was did spelling bees all the time. I was growing up. And so I think that going into court and watching people talk this language and and being sophisticated and using Latin terms to describe things was really cool, too. Um- 

 

Aaron Nelson  10:00  
Sure. 

 

Colette Tvedt  10:01  
And so that was great. And then when I was in college, I was a political science major, women's studies, and English. And so it was like the three kind of things that we were putting together to try to, how do you best be a lawyer, and I mean political science, quite frankly, I should have taken business courses, maybe more. But I love, I love politics too. So it was, it was more fun as a, you know, in this world at this time and during the last few elections, but, and then in college, I ended up going to PDS in DC, which is a Public Defender Service at my senior year. And I ended up extending that into the summer and worked for two women that are my mentors and still friends of mine who I adore, and to have those that's a very long relationship.

 

Aaron Nelson  10:48  
Yeah, yeah, I know you were also just talk a little bit more about some of your schooling before college, because some of my guests on here, I was raised Catholic. I'm a relapsed Catholic. I'm no longer a practicing Catholic. But I know one of our guests that you watch the show, Joe Bugni, that was very important to him, Matthew Hefti, he was the son of a pastor some other friends of mine that's very strong with them their religious faith in their childhood and growing up and setting up some of the morals and the values. Were- was that important to you at that age?

 

Colette Tvedt  11:27  
Absolutely, I went to a Catholic school from kindergarten to through 12th grade. I mean, I went to a Catholic High School as well. I always say, when I was, when I was growing up, Catholic, it was a very different Catholic Church. It was really about Jesus would say, help the- we care for the homeless. Feed the hungry. You know, the hungry, the multi you know, the the fish and the bread will multiply be you know, we love the taxpayers. We love the prostitutes, like that. Jesus is a public defender. I trade. I taught Sunday school when my kids were little, and that was what I would tell the kids, no, probably they were in second grade. I was like, a little anyway, that's a whole other- that's this other story. But faith was very important to my family. My mother comes from a family of eight. Her sister, Julie, who's was the youngest, was called to be a nun. She went to the- into the convent at the age of 13, and was cloister from her family for, I think, a year or two, which was really hard for my grandmother and grandfather, but my auntie was my godmother. It yes, it was really, you know, being, you know, the faith of being, of being kind and generous to others, was the tenant of the Catholic Church when I was growing up, and it wasn't about fancy things, and it wasn't about, you know, bad stuff happening that I knew about. Quite frankly, it was more of a community that really cared about giving to others, and that's exactly how I why it's so important to me. And those, you know, those beliefs and those, that lifestyle and the sense of community and caring is exactly what we do in our daily life as public defenders. So, yes, very, very much important to me. I'm lapsed. I agree, but that I still- I will sometimes wear my like cross to, you know, in under my suit when I'm going to court, because Jesus is a public defender as far as I'm concerned. So, you know, it's great. It is something I hold dear.

 

Aaron Nelson  13:27  
Well, that's great. And I know you- your parents were immigrants, or at least your dad was and lots of children, I think, went to bed, hearing different prayers. You heard something else when you went to bed.

 

Colette Tvedt  13:42  
Yes, I did, I and I, I hearken back to this when I was a little girl in Catholic school, and at night, before we said our prayers, we always recited the words from the Statute of Liberty. "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless tempest tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door". And I remember, like my we would always have to end "I lift my lamp beside the golden door". We would sing it in school as well. And to me, that was really powerful, because my father was born and raised in Norway, and came to America when he was in his, I think, 20, to get his business degree in college, and met my mother, fell in love and ended up staying here in America. My- and his whole family is still in Norway. I'm very, very close to my Norwegian family as well. My mother's parents were both born in Poland: Warsaw and Krakow. They both came over individually at very early ages. I think my grandfather was- my grandmother was 14 and my grandfather was 15, and both ended up in- they came over in a boat. My grandmother got very sick on, during the the journey here, and ended up working living in Newark, New Jersey, which is where, close to where I grew up, and worked in a bakery and cleaning houses. And then my grandfather was a butcher. So they were always, you know, the- my Polish background and my Norwegian background were very, very important to me growing up. And so this what's going on in the country. I don't, I probably can't talk about it, because I'll start getting emotional. It's so contrary to how I grew up. And, you know, my father always said, you know, this is the melting pot. We are so fortunate in this country to help each other. And, you know, and it's and I grew up in a very diverse neighborhood in Bluefield, New Jersey, so those words from the Statue of Liberty ring true to me so much today. And the power of like, you know, "send me your huddled masses yearning to be free the wretched refuse of your teeming shores. Send me the homeless Tempest". Like these are the words that when you first would come into America, through to Ellis Island, you'd see the Statue of Liberty. And those were the words that greeted you as you were, warmly greeted into this country. Warmly greeted into it. So you know, the last few years have been, especially here in Denver, have been really traumatic and grieving for many of us because of what we're seeing. And, you know, these ICE raids are scary, and I can go on on that, but so I am very grateful to my- my parents and my grandparents and that we have, we've kept the, you know, all of the timelines going back, you know, hundreds of years on both sides. So very, very blessed.

 

Aaron Nelson  16:43  
Yeah, and you, you've, you said the word grateful, and that's always something that just, I think, oozes out of you, throughout you, every any opportunity, anything that comes to you. I feel like Colette's just like grateful of that. And what I would say is, is, you know, I could just imagine how grateful you are as you sit here now, even to- grateful for that 10 year old who set you up to be in this position where you can defend those humans who aren't being warmly welcomed.

 

Colette Tvedt  17:14  
Absolutely, absolutely, I am grateful for that.

 

Aaron Nelson  17:17  
So when you were, when you were training to be a trial lawyer, you started out. It sounded like in in one of the most famous places, and one of the most revered places that you can in the public defender system there in Washington, DC. Tell me about how you got there.

 

Colette Tvedt  17:32  
So it was through the Eagleton Institute, Institute of Politics, I got invited to participate apply for this national I can't remember. It's like interns from all over the country. And then I was working at the public defender's office, like 90% of people were on the hill, are working in, you know, for all these things. And then I was, it's funny, I would wear, I was training to be an I was an investigator for them as an intern. And I used to wear, like, combat, you know, what are they called, camouflage pants, you know, you get the army/navy store? And, yeah, like, and sweatshirts and like, everywhere else is wearing suits and little high heels. And I'm just, like, dressed out to go to to PDS. And it was, it was the most amazing experience. I worked for two women, Angela Davis and Penny Marshall. Angela is now a professor in Washington. Penny was a chief public defender, and then went to Delaware, and she's now retired. Jim Doyle was there, who was a deputy public defender in Massachusetts, where I practice, a leading expert on eyewitness identification, and I had the blessing to see Charles Ogletree's last murder trial, and I was able to sit like right in the front row and watch this and see this, this amazing lawyer who personified all of the things that you want to be when you're a lawyer, his ability to tell a story. 

 

Aaron Nelson  19:03  
Who is Charles Ogletree? 

 

Colette Tvedt  19:04  
Charles Ogletree, or "Tree", is one of the most famous lawyers. He was a public defender, a writer, a appellate lawyer, a trial lawyer, a Law School professor at Harvard. He was a mentor to so many young lawyers. One of my best friends, Kianna, was like, worked with him in at Harvard. He was a generous soul, a beautiful, beautiful writer. Really advocated for, you know, the humanity of the work that we do and that you lawyers can be friends with their, you know, with their- the people that they serve. He was the one that-

 

Aaron Nelson  19:46  
He kind of started that. 

 

Colette Tvedt  19:46  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  19:46  
He was one of the people that really, what I was, the leader within that to try to bring them in. I mean, I almost thought of it as the- I've been reading some history about the difference between barristers and solicitors, you know, back in England, and they had different roles. And one of them had connections with the client, and one of them was separated, and the person who went into court was separated from their client. And here's Charles Ogletree. He's putting these two together. He's bringing forward the barrister to the solicitor to bring that all forward in court. And you got the chance to work with him. To watch him. 

 

Colette Tvedt  20:25  
And he wrote- there was a go, go back and forth between the two professors about why that's so important. And he really did introduce me to, at, the, for the first time, to story in a courtroom.

 

Aaron Nelson  20:38  
That's fantastic. One of our guests, whose episode is going to come out soon is James McComas, who wrote the book "Dynamic Cross Examination", but he talked about how he was a Harvard classmate with Charles Ogletree, and he and "Tree" worked together at PDS, and so what a- there's so many lawyers that have, that have come out of there, right? 

 

Colette Tvedt  21:02  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  21:03  
Now, so you, you're a, you know, a young lawyer. You've watched some, some court, but now you start out, the first thing you see is, like the pinnacle of the top of the mountain, right? Yeah, exactly. So you take those experiences and you and you bring them with you to your first job up in Massachusetts.

 

Colette Tvedt  21:27  
Yes, I was really fortunate to get hired by the CPCs committee for public council services in in Massachusetts. I worked briefly in in New Hampshire Public Defender's Office, but it was too long of a commute. I'm still friends with people from New Hampshire, but my first real job in Cambridge, Massachusetts was at CPCS. I was trained by, again, amazing women, Stephanie page, Cathy Bennett, were two of my biggest- I just adore them, and they were the ones that were treat- teaching us. And they used to, they- NCDC was a big deal back then, and is now. And- 

 

Aaron Nelson  22:11  
Yeah. Absolutely. 

 

Colette Tvedt  22:13  
They were, they taught the NCDC method. So our boot camp was five weeks, and it was trial skills and practical skills, really intense, eight, you know, eight to five, five days a week, culminating in a jury trial. And, you know, it was wonderful. And then I, from Cambridge, it was my first job there, and then I went to Lowell, Massachusetts. And it was a big change for me when I went to Lowell three years after I started, because there was four lawyers in our office. There was two women and two men. In the- in our in our county, there were, including me, five women and about 275 men. And it was a very tough jurisdiction in terms of the types of cases that you get really, really, very, very difficult, murders and rapes, robberies, very serious crimes. And I am still very close to those five women we did. We worked so beautifully together, and it was a time where you were being the only woman many times in the courthouse. It, especially back, you know, in the 90s, it was a, it was a tough place to be, you know, you had to really steal yourself and become fearless. And that's, you know, I don't, is that good or bad? I don't know. I tried a lot of a lot of cases when I was in Lowell. I had the- it was the most phenomenal community, probably one of my favorite jobs of my career, except for this one here now. I get all favorite jobs, but it was just a really wonderful, a wonderful time to practice, and I adored my- my mentor, Dan Callahan, it's again, having so many people that you just idolize and like, that's the wrong word, but you honor and they mentor you so lovingly, and so, you know, like he said to me, "Slow it down, Colette". You know, I came from New Jersey, right? So I'm from New Jersey and Massachusetts, I was not beloved when I walked into a courtroom in Massachusetts because I had a New Jersey accent, right? New York/New Jersey accent. That was really hard, and I started calling around to see if I could get speech classes to lower your- all the, you know, this very heavy- it's probably not as heavy as I thought, but I had an accent. I still do. It was $1,200 I didn't have that kind of money back then, and I realized that when I go to court and like in Cambridge they would say, "Where's the Harvard students? Where's Harvard? Harvard? Like, park your car in Harvard Yard". And so I thought, you know, they have beautiful accents in Massachusetts. I have got my New Jersey accent so, we can live together in harmony. But Dan Callahan said, "I'm not saying anything about your accent, but I'm- you talk too fast". 

 

Aaron Nelson  25:20  
Sure. 

 

Colette Tvedt  25:21  
And "you think too fast, so slow it down". And so that was good advice for me. 

 

Aaron Nelson  25:27  
Back to your mother's advice: articulate. 

 

Colette Tvedt  25:29  
Yeah, articulate. And I was articulated by speaking so fast. And I have a funny Jeff Robinson story later on, but I, you know, Massachusetts was really wonderful. I had the opportunity, when I was there to- to be a temporary Clinical Professor at Suffolk University School of Law, and then it became a permanent position for me, where I taught for four or five, four years, I think, in at Suffolk law school and running a year long public defender clinic, which was like a dream job. I had amazing students like- and I'm not gonna many of them are criminal defense lawyers, public defenders, but you know, and that I'm still friends with and keep in touch with, so it was really wonderful to really bring the skills that I had learned from the ground to the law students, and they were, it was really fun to teach young students, law students, but-

 

Aaron Nelson  26:29  
Yeah. You know, and I know you're doing that now teaching, but you're also mentoring. And just the whole idea of which I think at PDS, or now at Massachusetts, is just everybody else is- is modeling a particular ethos, right, of how we do things. And then it's just, it continues on. You're just standing on the shoulders of somebody else. They're standing on the shoulders of somebody else. And it just follows and follows and follows. And it really, once you get into a community, it sounds like you, you were grateful to be in that community, but I know you. You've, you've developed those communities. How did you develop that community at Suffolk, with your public defender program?

 

Colette Tvedt  27:13  
I like people, you know. I have a lot of friends. I- I'm so fortunate that I'd be able, been able to to have communities everywhere I've worked and lived so Massachusetts to Seattle, Washington to Washington D.C. to Denver, Colorado. I moved here in 2017. I have a huge group of women, lawyers and non-lawyers that I just love. So when I was teaching at Suffolk law school, I think my enthusiasm for the work that I did the, you know, bringing kids to school, you know, doing a boot camp, and then bringing them to the BMC lock-up, and just talking to our clients. Like, you know, people get so scared the first time they go to jail. And that's why I said I might have been a criminal in a past life, because the first time I went to jail, I was very comfortable, and I've been in hundreds and hundreds of jails now, but I think that, you know, if when you love something so much, you want the people that you're mentoring and teaching to have the same passion, and even if you don't like love being a public defender, you have to uphold the Constitution, and you have to treat your clients with dignity and respect. And that kind of communication was one of the first, you know, presentations that I would do, and I would have former clients come in and talk to my class every year. And so I think that when- the thing about modeling, I had to realize, which is a very good lesson as I've gone through life: you can't- I didn't want 16 students to be Colette Tvedt, because you can't. They had to find their own style and their own voice in the courtroom. And so what I- I had to remind myself, nope, they're not you. They don't have to model you, but you have to make sure that you're bringing- you're meeting them where you are, and bringing out the best in them, so that they can bring, bring out the best for their clients in court. So I learned a lot.

 

Aaron Nelson  29:16  
It's kind of like the teacher that you said, or the lawyer that you said, kind of helped you to be seen or heard with your voice and how you needed to change your voice so that you could then pass it on to help others. 

 

Colette Tvedt  29:30  
Yeah, yep. 

 

Aaron Nelson  29:31  
Now you started your career here, I think, with about as clear an identity as any criminal defense lawyer I've ever, have ever known or heard stories about, right? It's well founded since you're 10 years old, you know, and you have undoubtedly, not only that, but a wholesome aspiration, right? I mean, you're like, I want to be a public defender, right? You're not like, I want to be Clarence Darrow, not that he was, but you weren't aspiring on the ego side, which is fine sometimes, you know, I have some of that, but it was very wholesome aspirations. But you're still developing your voice, right? You're still young, you're still trying to figure that out. I've heard you tell the stories about how you were finally able to find that voice during trial. Did it take some time to do that? How did that come to be? 

 

Colette Tvedt  30:23  
I think it was five trials in and, you know, this is like- this- it was, it was at a time where, you know, women wore, like, you know, these bows and, like, very conservative suits. I thought that I had to be Colette Tvedt Esquire. "Thank you. Your Honor. May I please the jury. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen". I, you know, I was still telling a story, but it was kind of like with very stiff and very proper. And I was representing a young man who was charged with a very serious robbery, and I thought he was innocent, and he was someone that worked with rebuilding, like motorcycles and what is and, you know, like lawn mowers and, like, that was his job. 

 

Aaron Nelson  30:47  
Small engines, type of stuff. 

 

Colette Tvedt  30:52  
Small engines, right? So when he would be in my office, and he'd come in after work, and he'd be, you know, you know, have all this stuff still on his hands, I would say, "So, what did you do today?" And he would just light up when he talked about the work he did he loved it was just like his dream job. And he would just, we would just have these conversations, and then, you know, prepping him to testify, he was, you know, he would- we'd talk. And he was like, "I'm nervous about this. I'm not really good speaker, and I'm really scared Colette". Like, "do I have to do this?". I'm like, I think, you know, I'm encouraging you. It's your decision whether you take the stand or not. But you know, I love- your story is very compelling. So he takes the stand, and he's, I'm asking him questions, and he's answering like this. And the judge says, you know, "son, you've got to speak up". And he and then the judge says to the jury, can you hear him? And he said, they said no. And the judge said, you know, "if you don't, if you don't talk up soon, I'm gonna make you hold that microphone up to your mouth because they can't hear". He, like, starts yelling at my client. And so I calmly, like, stepped away from the podium, and I stood in the jury box, so I don't know if I would do that now. And I said to him-

 

Aaron Nelson  32:22  
The bravery of youth.

 

Colette Tvedt  32:24  
"Jarrell, what's going on? Are you scared?" And he said, "I'm scared". And I said, "I know you're scared. Tell us why". "I don't like to speak. I'm not a good speaker, and I'm just really scared being here". And I said, "Well, just- we're gonna, I'm gonna ask you the questions, kind of like when we talk, and we're just having a conversation, okay? And I'm gonna, I'm gonna stand here until the jury, this gentleman right here can hear you, okay?". And he said, "Okay". And I said, "All right, so let's start at the beginning. You know, it just- where you- where did you go to tech school?". "Bill Ricka School". "Say it louder". "Bill Ricka, School of Technology". "Okay, I'm going to ask you another question". And it was, it wasn't Colette Tvedt Esquire. It was Colette Tvedt being myself in the courtroom and the jury was laughing. The judge didn't pull me out of the jury box, but the judge said, "All right, Ms. Tvedt, made your point. You can move back towards the podium". And I said, "that's fine", but I stood for like four feet away from the podium, back and then continued to ask. And this is a very big courtroom, so it felt really good. And when juries are nodding and smiling and laughing with you, when you fall in a courtroom and trip over a wire, which I do all the time, and I'm like, "Ah, sorry", they like you. And in that- that- that goes to your client, my client was very likable to this jury because he was very- he a lot of integrity, and he had a hard life, and he was young, 18 years old. So this is- so that was a good lesson for me, and it got easier and easier and easier for me to be myself.

 

Aaron Nelson  34:11  
And, yeah, I mean, that was almost, it sounds like the sweet spot, you know, you were, you probably couldn't have done that in your first trial or your second trial, just the bravery, not only the- to not recognize it, but the bravery to go embed yourself in the jury box. I mean, that's brilliant. And it's probably also the sweet spot of, now, you'd be told, "you know better than that. Ms. Tvedt. You can't do that", right? But there's that sweet spot.

 

Colette Tvedt  34:40  
Did a lot of stuff. Yeah, you've done it too, Aaron, I mean-

 

Aaron Nelson  34:45  
You know, you- I don't want to say, get away with it, but it was just, it felt natural. 

 

Colette Tvedt  34:48  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  34:49  
I would imagine, and nobody thought, I'm sure it doesn't sound like the jury in any way thought that you were using it to manipulate or to do anything. It was just, this is what needs to get done. 

 

Colette Tvedt  34:59  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  35:00  
And I've heard you say that- when I heard you say that story before, I'd heard you say, you know, you'd asked your client, "we want to hear you". And that use of the word "we". 

 

Colette Tvedt  35:12  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  35:13  
Tell me about that.

 

Colette Tvedt  35:14  
And like, because I kept when I had- I was establishing my little relationship with the people closest to me in the jury box. I was like, you know, "we need to hear you back here, because the judge is going to make you hold a microphone up to your lips like this, like, you know, Phil Donahue, and you don't want to do that" and that, those were words I was actually saying, like, "we need to hear you and you need to tell your story so that they can hear you". And so I think it's just, I always say, when people like you have these wonderful lawyers, you know, I was teaching with an organization called Justice Africa Advocacy of going over to Kenya and Uganda, teaching African lawyers about story, how to be storytellers in the courtroom. Now, let me tell you, African lawyers are the most amazing storytellers in the world, legitimately. 

 

Aaron Nelson  36:07  
Great. 

 

Colette Tvedt  36:10  
The second they start to cross examine, they put their barrister's wig on. They put their hands on their hips, and they say, "I would like to answer you- ask you a question. And I was like, 'Oh, come on, you know, we've got to bring it down, and let's just do what you were doing in your opening statement, like tell them that story. Just because you're cross examining someone, you've got to bring those same qualities to this part". It's the same thing here in the States, people that are so, you know, effervescent and- and they really are good storytellers, one on one, you know, funny or in a bar, whatever it is, they get into a courtroom, and all of a sudden they get stiff. I feel like the best thing that we can all be is someone said, be yourself unless you're an asshole. Then fake it. So you may want to cut that out, but that's, you know, it always made me laugh.

 

Aaron Nelson  37:09  
Yeah, no. So, how if you can, if you remember, it probably wasn't yesterday, but how did that feel to just be able to find that voice that you like did in the moment, do you recall or afterwards coming back? Like how that felt for you?

 

Colette Tvedt  37:26  
Heart glowing. Absolutely. It felt fantastic. It you know, I don't know if I have, I have replicated those, that joy in a courtroom in other situations as I've gone through my career, but I was oftentimes in interviews with comedians. They're asked the question, "how- when, when did you know you made it?". And they said, "the first time that I made people laugh, I was in third grade, the first time I made people laugh, and it made me feel like so happy and empowered. And you know that that joy, that when you can make people laugh", and that's how it felt to me, like as a lawyer, "I think I've arrived", and that was a joyful, yes, I can remember, I remember it- the moment the- it's the Lowell Superior Courthouse. It's an 1800 you know, courthouse, it was birds would be flying because they had to open these big windows. And so you'd be in opening statement, I'd be like, this damn bird is like flying around man, like juries would laugh. But, you know, but that moment in that trial was a- was a game changer for me.

 

Aaron Nelson  38:37  
How did that help you moving forward? I mean, it sounds like it's still I know for me, there are moments in and outside of the courtroom that I'll look back and, "I did this. You, you're okay today. You there was this other time that you did something" right? How did that experience help you moving forward?

 

Colette Tvedt  38:57  
It made my life so much easier. You know, it's always easier to be yourself than something that you think you should be. 

 

Aaron Nelson  39:04  
Yeah. 

 

Colette Tvedt  39:05  
So that's, that's the biggest thing I could say. The biggest takeaway was that from that moment on, including the rest of that trial, I gained confidence. My shoulders got straighter. I was using the courtroom more. I love, you know, in those days, and you know, in state court, you can just, "you do you", you know, going up to the witnesses, you know, first starting using PowerPoint and using whatever it was, I started to realize that I can start being more demonstrative, and I can be myself, and sometimes, if I'm, you know, you can bring humor into the courtroom. You can bring solemnity. You can bring silence into the courtroom. And it allowed me to have, you know, to be able to have all of these different versions or parts of myself that I could, I can tap into in a courtroom as well, so...

 

Aaron Nelson  39:58  
And- and that's beautiful. I know there's another time I've heard a story that, you know, there's times in courtroom where we need to be ourselves, but there's also times I feel like there's times where we need to be bring other things in, right? So the natural, friendly, you know, nice, wonderful, get-along Colette, that's who you are. But there are times that you probably learned that the cop that you're cross-examining, he needs something else. Do you remember? Was there a time when you- when you had to do that, and you had to- to be somebody else in that way? Maybe it's another version of you?

 

Colette Tvedt  40:39  
Yeah, and I, and I'm going to be really clear. I am stern in the courtroom a lot. And I, you know, I, you know, I think we- I always say, I think Steve Lindsay said, don't piss off the alligators until you say, safely through the water, whatever, through the swamp. You know, being a woman in the courtroom, you know, for the first couple trials I was getting, you know, during motions to suppress, you know, I would be cross-examining these, these cops. And I was young. I went right from college to law school to the public defender's office. I was young, I was attractive, and the cops were making fun of me. And so I would ask, you know, during a motion to suppress, the example would be and you have a transcript from the- from the grand jury. Cop testifies on direct examination something contrary to what he testified to at the grand jury. So "Officer Jones, today, you testified that the car was blue. You testified before the grand jury on April 12", "I guess so maybe, if that's what you say, so whatever". And, "and, sir, when you were asked the question by the district attorney, what color is the car, you answered, the car is red", "if that's what you say". And that was happening to me all the time. And then I went to NCDC advanced cross examination. This is really early on in my career, and Denise DeLaRue was one of my training partners, and she- she stayed behind that day in teaching, and she said that, but that's bull, that's baloney. She has a beautiful southern accent. She's no- she said, "You know, it's not what, it's not what- it's not what, you know, what you're saying. It's what he said under oath before 26 people of the grand jury on April 12, page nine, you know, line 52 and so, Colette, when you're cross-examining him, I- you're going to be so excited. Wait for that moment when he says, 'Well, if that, if you say so counselor'". And- and so I go that back to court on Monday, and low and behold, I'm crossing the cop, literally that next day. And he says, "Well, if that's what you say, is if that's what you say, Counselor". And he rolls his eyes. And I just stood there and let it skip the beat and say, "officer, it's not what I said, it's what you said under oath on April 27. And this man, the prosecutor, in front of 26 citizens, asked you, Detective Nunes, 'what color was the car?' And you answered, [opening my book, page nine, line 52] 'the car was red'. 'Yeah, I guess I did say that'". And it went on, and then on, and then he stopped doing it. We all ate at the same Rosie's Cafe, all of the defense lawyers. There wasn't a lot of food at that time in Lowell, and he came up to me after court that day and knocked on my shoulder and said, nice cross-examination counselor. And he wasn't- and he said that in front of a bunch of public defenders. And then I always said, I think it's like he, I have, I told a friend, who told a friend, who told a friend, and I think he started to tell the cops, you know, "you can't mess with her as much as we used to. We've hazed her, you know, she's, she's gonna give it right back to you". So it started, it's similar to what that other story was. It was the growing of confidence and cross-examination, which is one- is really everything that we do in our work. So it's finding, you know, and telling story too, in cross examination that is equally important. But you know, don't be afraid, because you know what the answers are. But you know that cops can be tough. We all know that. 

 

Aaron Nelson  44:35  
Absolutely. But also, I mean, what I love about those two stories is, you know that first story, you're using your humanity to show his humanity. You know you're, you're, that's the connection. It's a human connection, right? But there are other times, and sometimes it's when we're speaking to power that we need to use something other than ourselves. And there, what I heard you is, you're using the power of the principle. 'You said this under oath'. You know, you're using the power of the place, the courtroom, all of those things, and you're just a vessel for the power that's coming through these other things. It's not the humanity so much as this other power. And that's- those are the two different parts of us that we need to do in court. And that's just beautiful.

 

Colette Tvedt  45:23  
You know, one other thing that I learned at NCDC too, which was like, I mean, honestly, so many things from learning from other lawyers, was you make an objection, and in Massachusetts, there was no speaking objections. You had to go to sidebar, and you had to put your- you make your record. And I can't remember who from NCDC, what my teacher said is that when, you know how you're always trying to make eye contact with the jury? When you're at sidebar, make eye contact with the judge and just say "Your honor, you're familiar that in Commonwealth versus Jones, you know, footnote seven, it said dadada... and so, you know, I am asking the court to sustain this objection because it's contra- and I'm looking at the judge. Literally, like, so you're- I'm down here, and the judge is up there, but I'm looking at the judge, man or woman, and, and it started to change that in my rulings so- 

 

Aaron Nelson  46:19  
Sure. 

 

Colette Tvedt  46:20  
Eye contact. Because I you know, like, sometimes when you're up making a record, you like, sometimes you close your eyes, or the roll of decks, and you're trying to remember that, and you're like, you know, we've all done it, and just that one little trick, anyway, there you go.

 

Aaron Nelson  46:32  
Yeah, yeah. And it's so much about, you know, seeing and being seen. I mean, right there, you're seeing what needs to be done, but you're also making sure that someone's seeing you. I mean, because it's, I think, so often easy, I think, for others to dismiss our clients, and then therefore, because we're next to them, to dismiss us. And you really, you need to be seen, right? And sometimes you have to demand it, and sometimes, over and over and over, just persistence. 

 

Colette Tvedt  47:03  
Yep. 

 

Aaron Nelson  47:03  
You know, but that's what I get out of those stories, is you're, you, you know how to be seen and you know how to have others show others. You know? That you're seeing things so that you can show them.

 

Colette Tvedt  47:17  
I think one- you know, the- what I said before about being fearless is that it's an important part of the work that we do. You know, precedent has to happen somewhere, right? You have to start it. So in Massachusetts, we were always asking for eyewitness identification experts. Deny, deny, deny. You know they were there. They know what happened. And we made the record, made the record, made the record. And once I was in court, and the judge said to me, "Miss Tvedt, how's that forehead of yours?". And I said, "What? Fine". And he goes, "Yeah, from hitting it against the brick wall. You keep asking me for the same expert, and I keep telling you no". And I said, "and I'm going to keep asking for it". And lo and behold, about a year later, not through me, but through another attorney, they won- a judge allowed an expert from eyewitness identification expert to come in. Massachusetts now has the strongest, most beautiful jury instructions on eyewitness identification and calling experts and allowing them to really educate the jury. So I think that's another thing. What you're saying is that we have to command the courtroom, and know that. You know, just because the judge says no, doesn't, don't stop, you know, be fear fearless. You know, it's gonna happen.

 

Aaron Nelson  48:30  
Oh, absolutely. You know when you're in that moment with the police officer in the cross, you know, and you put your shoulders back, as you say, and you know you, you, you stand solid, you stand tall, and you and you're successful in it. How does that help you going forward again, is that? Is that in the same way? Is this the same little dopamine joy hit? How does that transfer across other aspects? So it's not just that little technique, because that's one particular technique. But that success had to have had a domino effect on all kinds of other things that you did in the courtroom. Can you tell us about how that felt?

 

Colette Tvedt  49:11  
Yeah, it felt great. I love cross-examining cops. It's like a joy. I laughingly said to when I took this job, I wanted to go shadow everyone in my office so I can learn how to answer phones and to run the front desk. And I said, after the first day of the front desk, I'd be like, I would much prefer to be cross examining a detective in a first degree murder case right now than doing all this, because it's really confusing. I think that the lessons that I've learned to make me feel really good is that, you know, you said something about ego. We all have an ego, and my preparation is, is, is intense about I write everything down. I think about it. I have chapters. I'm a visual thinker. So I always go to the crime scene. I always take pictures. I always take videos in my head and physically. So I will- I feel like I know the scene better than the cop. I know the scene better than the complaining witness or eyewitnesses, whatever it is. So when I'm- and sometimes you have to, like, put them on the spot, and that doesn't always feel good, but sometimes you have to do the work. So I think preparation, I don't use notes oftentimes in the courtroom. So like, I write out many, many, many pages of notes. But I keep them on a single, you know, each chapter on a page, and then I'll go over and look at it. Yeah, it's, it's, what it's, it's, it's every- it's really easy. I think that, again, when you hold the piece of paper like this. 

 

Aaron Nelson  50:34  
Yeah. 

 

Colette Tvedt  50:34  
You lose a jury, you lose the Fact Finder. So that's, yes, it was like when you build confidence in the- in your capabilities and what you're good at, you feel better every time you're in trial and every cross-examination. It's different. But, you know, I've had to cross-examine like crazy bomb experts from what's it called, I would say Guantanamo, but Quantico? 

 

Aaron Nelson  50:59  
Oh, Quantico. 

 

Colette Tvedt  51:01  
Quantico. 

 

Aaron Nelson  51:02  
Sure. 

 

Colette Tvedt  51:03  
I had a cross examine an FBI Special Agent, you know, chemist, about how to make a bomb. 

 

Aaron Nelson  51:11  
Yeah. 

 

Colette Tvedt  51:11  
I had to learn how to make a bomb to cross-examine. 

 

Aaron Nelson  51:16  
Which is both the scariest and most exciting thing about our job is the things that we need to go and learn. Like, I'm like, Oh, I guess I'm gonna need to learn about head injuries today. 

 

Colette Tvedt  51:25  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  51:25  
I guess I'm gonna need to learn about poison or, I guess I'm gonna need to learn about DNA. It- I mean, I find that to be exciting, right? I mean, because we're like, you said, you're never on the top of your game, there's always more to know. And then, of course, you have to have that knowledge, which you have, you've demonstrated you get that knowledge. And then how do you apply that in the courtroom in a way that gets you seen and heard? 

 

Colette Tvedt  51:50  
Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  51:51  
Yeah. So you've had a career that has been to many- you know, I've been a criminal defense attorney for 30 years, but I've been in St. Croix County that entire time. One place, one state, you know, just doing the same thing, kind of running around, and you've been on the East Coast. You've been on the West Coast. You've been in DC. You're now in Denver. Just give us a quick of just your chronology. I know, I know there's more depth to that, but just- you've had lots of different jobs in lots of different places.

 

Colette Tvedt  52:22  
So, Massachusetts, public defender's office, assistant professor at Suffolk Law School in Boston. King County Public Defender's office in Seattle, Washington. A law partner at the law firm of Schrader, Goldmark, & Bender, learning from the greatest lawyers as far as I'm- one of the greatest lawyers, Jeff Robinson. 

 

Aaron Nelson  52:41  
The greatest. I agree with that. 

 

Colette Tvedt  52:44  
I have been practicing a long time before I joined Jeff, and I can tell you, it was like I had never practiced before. It took my level of practice to another level watching this amazing lawyer. We tried a lot of cases together. There were times when he was picking a jury, I'd be like, I couldn't even- I was just mesmerized, right? So then, so Schrader, Goldmark, & Bender, and then Jeff went to the ACLU, and I went to the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, where I was the National Public Defense Training and Reform Director. So I did national public defense work.  

 

Aaron Nelson  53:24  
Mouthful.  

 

Colette Tvedt  53:25  
Obama's second term in DC, and I, for many of you who remember his second term, Eric Holder was there, and he had Vanita Gupta and Carol Mason and Lisa Foster. He had, like, an amazing group of people that really wanted to end mass incarceration. Cynthia Roseberry, Clemency 2014, my best friend. We- we were offices right next to each other. End mass incarceration. They were putting money towards us doing work in public defense. I was going all over the country, training public defenders. I wrote a lot of reports with my wonderful deputy, Diane Price. We travel together all the time, and I spent about a year in the south watching- court watching, and that's what led me to this position. I monitored municipal courts in the south and then spent almost a year in South Carolina and wrote two reports. But sitting in a courtroom, not being able to do anything and just watching is a very difficult thing to do, and the constitutional deficiencies and horror stories I witnessed were devastating, devastating.

 

Aaron Nelson  54:50  
Yeah, so some of these, you know, you've worked in different places, had different roles, but there's some universal problems, you know? 

 

Colette Tvedt  54:59  
Oh, God. Yeah.

 

Aaron Nelson  54:59  
What are some of these universal problems? Even if there's a story that you kind of connects all of them, or if I know some of them are sad and tragic and not necessarily things we necessarily want to talk about. But I think the work that we do we- we need to recognize these are universal problems.

 

Colette Tvedt  55:19  
Racism, number one. 

 

Aaron Nelson  55:21  
Yeah, of course. 

 

Colette Tvedt  55:22  
Racism, number two. Racism, number three.

 

Aaron Nelson  55:29  
And now you're- you were in the south, right? But- 

 

Colette Tvedt  55:31  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  55:31  
But you're not just talking about the South. You're talking about-

 

Colette Tvedt  55:34  
Boston. Are you kidding me? Seattle, Washington, Denver, Colorado. I mean, I'm sorry, but it, you know-

 

Aaron Nelson  55:42  
DC? 

 

Colette Tvedt  55:45  
The DODC, it's everywhere, right? So, you know, it's, it's, it's maybe seen in different, you know, Wolf in different clothing, right? But it's everywhere. And, you know, I hate to say that, because it is the blatant racism that you- that I witnessed in some of these courtrooms. It's in, it is in every jurisdiction. So I am not pinpointing south. And by the way, amazing lawyers that are doing phenomenal work in the south right now, New Orleans and Tennessee. And this is from the Tennessee- Knoxville, Tennessee public defender's office. I spent time in Nashville. And I mean, they're great, great lawyers everywhere. But you're dealing with systems that are very, very horribly a disparate treatment. And briefly, I'm sitting in South Carolina, I'm watching a docket. There's an older black woman is sitting in front of me, and she turns around and she said, "Are you a lawyer?". And I said, "Yes". And she said, "Could you represent me?". And I said, "Oh, I can't. I'm just here watching court. I'm not licensed to practice in in this jurisdiction". She said, "Okay". And then the courtroom cleared out, and she's still sitting there, and they call her case, and the judge says, "Where's your lawyer?" She says, "I need a public defender". He says, "you have, you had time to get a public defender? Where's your lawyer?". "Your Honor, I need a public defender. Please give me a public defender". She's walking up to the court. He said, "Well, you don't have a lawyer. We're going to proceed now. Do you want to go to- you want a jury trial or a bench trial? Jury trial, bench trial?". "I want a public defender". "All right, we're going to have bench trial. You want to make an opening statement?". "No, Your Honor, I want a public defender". "All right, we're going to swear in the first witness", and it's a security guard from Walmart. Swears in. "What happened?". "This woman, I think she's a grandmother, because she was there with a small child. I saw her try to take a cupcake and a piece of meat off the shelf without paying. I stopped her. I gave her a ticket". And the judge says, "well, was, is there any restitution?". He goes, "absolutely... Actually, not. We put the cupcake back on the piece of meat. No restitution. That's all that happened. She was very cooperative. She was really caring about her granddaughter". "You have any cross examination?". "No, Your Honor. I want a public defender". "Let's call the next witness". It's another woman that was there at the checkout. Says the same thing. Two minutes. And I would time things in court. We do all these, these things. 

 

Aaron Nelson  57:55  
Yeah. 

 

Colette Tvedt  57:56  
He says, "Well, you have anything else you want to say?". "Your Honor, I really need a lawyer". "I find you guilty. And I see that you've had you passed a bad check about 10, whatever, 10 years ago. I wish I could give you more than I'm going to give you the max, but the max is 30 days. Take her into custody". Gavel, cuffed, and out the door. And I'm sitting next to Diane, and I literally went... and she said, "Oh my God. Are you okay?" I'm like, "what just happened?". And the judge sees me, and he says, "Okay. Excuse me, do have a case on here?". And I said, "No, I'm- I'm here with the from NACDL- the National Association". He goes, "Oh my gosh. I used to be a member of NACDL. You know, I'm- I used to be a defense lawyer before I took the bench. And you know this- have you enjoyed being here?". And I said, "Your Honor, what just happened? That woman was asking for a lawyer, and you gave her jail time?". "Well, she had plenty of time to get a public defender. Her case was on a month ago. I told her to get public defender. She didn't". I ended up meeting with the public defender in that jurisdiction. She spent a week in jail, but he got her out and the case dismissed. But that's because I was sitting in the courtroom, right? So, when that experience happened, I said, when you go back into practice, get over your felony, five falutin felony lawyer self. Oh, I've done all these big cases-

 

Aaron Nelson  59:16  
I only do the big cases. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

 

Colette Tvedt  59:19  
You go and do Municipal Court work. So when I moved to- when Trump was elected, I decided that I wanted to go back into private practice, and because I not, I'm not getting political, but I knew that he wouldn't be funding public defense reform so, or grants and stuff that were that, even some George Bush grants that were helpful for public defenders, that were DOJ, BJ were being cut. I moved to Colorado. I ended up starting my private practice, and then I- this job became available here at the municipal public defender's office. And I can wax poetic about I am where I should be in this moment, and I love this work. I love this office. We are one of the greatest- we are the- I'm going to say we're the best municipal public defender agency in the country. I have the finest lawyers. We have 21 lawyers, and many of them came from state practice and private practice. Many have been- they've tried multiple murder cases, robberies, huge cases in state and federal court. They decided that they want to come to the municipal public defender. And I told a friend who told a friend who told a friend, it's a great environment to work in. And so people start, you know, coming to the office and in the last you know, so I've been here for three years. We are the most talented lawyers. They try trespass cases like they try a first degree murder case, and the judges respect and allow our lawyers to do their work. They are, you know, upholding the Constitution. They are really the beacons of experts. It has gone you know, everyone talks about how good the lawyers are, but in addition to having great lawyers, we are a holistic Public Defender Service, because 80% of our clients are living with trauma, have behavioral health issues, substance misuse, and almost all, or many of them are unhoused, and many- many of the immigration, there's immigration issues. So I have lawyers that came from huge immigration law firms. So we just have this beautiful office. But what was different about this office than other public defender municipal agencies is that we have a client support team, and that is really a game changer for this work. So it's led by a social worker. We have a behavioral health navigator who works with clients that have very significant behavioral health issues, and we have seven cure navigators, people with lived experience that have been through the system have struggled with mental health or drug and alcohol addiction issues, and now are certified peer navigators. They go to court every single day. They sit with our clients, they work with our clients, they get them connected to services. We have holistic courtrooms. So we have four lawyers, we have a client support team member, we have a paralegal and a legal secretary. So people are creating these small, wonderful communities in each of the four courtrooms that we're in. Yeah, and what I started to say about immigration. It's a scary time in America, and we, and given we have so many clients that were that- that have come here seeking refuge or sanctuary. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:02:42  
Yes. 

 

Colette Tvedt  1:02:43  
And when you come into my office, if people are in distress or a crisis, the first thing we have all been trained to do, "can I get you a cup of coffee? Can I get you a Hot Pocket, a burrito, a cupcake?". We- our kitchen is stocked. The lawyers are always putting into a pot, and every couple weeks they go to Costco. This is a sanctuary in the midst of a crazy, crazy jungle. You walk into my office and you you are seen and heard. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:03:14  
Yeah. 

 

Colette Tvedt  1:03:15  
In a time locally and nationally, that's not always happening. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:03:22  
That's not happening. 

 

Colette Tvedt  1:03:23  
And when we have a client, and even our clients that are no longer our clients, when they want to just talk to someone, our doors are open and and sometimes it is just to talk to someone, and other times it's to, you know, of course, give beautifully and strong legal advice. Fierce, fierce defenders and support team members in this office. So this is my sanctuary in the jungle.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:03:48  
Yeah, you know. And when I, you know, when I heard the phrase sanctuary in the jungle the first time on for the defense podcast, and I've read up on it, and I've, I've talked about it, I very much thought about it in the sense of in the courtroom, in the courtroom, in the courtroom, in the courtroom. I got a chance to chat with our good friend, Professor Michelle Levine, and Michelle was really talking to me. Opened my eyes some to be like just the sanctuary between us and our client, which is a little bit of what definitely the end game of what you're talking about now, but what I heard you say is something that's also what I want to talk about here, is just what do the criminal defense lawyers need to perform at their optimal level? What do we need to be the best versions of criminal defense lawyers? And it sounds like that's what you've done. You as the executive director, has created a sanctuary for your lawyers to perform at their highest level. Because all of the resources that you've talked about, you're talking about it in a way because most people don't have those resources. Most agencies don't have those resources. And so whatever you're doing, you've really, I know. You're talking about a sanctuary for our clients, your clients, which is fantastic, but it starts with creating a sanctuary for your lawyers.

 

Colette Tvedt  1:05:08  
You know, I- Alice Norman was the first director here, and, you know, it was a much smaller office, but she really had this vision of- of doing what we've expanded, expanded, expanded, expanded, expanded. And, you know, you always, What do teachers need? They need more money. They need more support. What do public defenders nationally need? They need more money. They need more support. You know, I'm- I love Wisconsin. I've spent gazillions of days, years, months there. You know, it's like my best friends in the criminal defense community. You know you and Keith and Deja and Elliot and Catherine and Michelle and Mario and Gina. And, you know, the list goes on, right? You know, we all, you know, Wisconsin, the alternative, the alternate defenders in Wisconsin really are fighting for getting more money too. And you know, public defenders are so it happens everywhere, right? So you do have to advocate for money for your clients, and you go and changes. There's a lot in this position. I do a lot of testifying. I'm, you know, you have to work with city council, you have to work with the mayor's office, you have to work with the city attorney's office, you have to work with the Denver Police Department, the sheriff's office. I'm really trying. I think, I think from from my position, not everyone loves me, right? You know. But I think that- 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:06:22  
We do here at the sanctuary in the jungle. 

 

Colette Tvedt  1:06:25  
No, but I think people respect me and like, it's just like, you have to be really, you know, you have to advocate for your- for your people. So I think that's a really important part of the job, you know, I, I'm listen again, gratitude, blessed because I'm, we're able to, you know, we're able to have, you know, in very dire budgetary times, we, you know, we have a great office, but it can change in a dime, and it has, in many ways, we went through a terrible, you know, budget cuts in Denver, and I didn't, you know, it's just it impacted every office so deeply, right? But, you know, I'm grateful that I did not have to lay off any of my staff, which was really a hard thing to do, but, you know, I those business classes. You know, you have to start thinking like a, like a business woman, like, where, where can we work? I work with my team very, very closely. Like, had you had- this is, it is a, you know, it's a business. And I'm very blessed to have an extraordinarily strong leadership team here too.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:07:23  
Yeah, so I want to transition here and just ask you some about just friends, right, and community and belonging. I had a dear friend of mine, my friend, Jessa, I don't know if you got a chance to meet Jessa? She was-

 

Colette Tvedt  1:07:40  
I met her, and I'm very sorry, Aaron. Devastating. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:07:44  
Thank you, yeah, and that's, you know, she's somebody that I shared my ambitions with, you know, I shared the weight of the practice, you know, I shared my drive for doing certain things, and shared the pressure with and that was- that's gone now, I mean, there's lots of things that are gone because, because Jessa's gone, but that's one of the one of my motivations, too, for even to start this, to seek others, to just create this community. Because I had that, and I- and I loved her, and I loved that, that sense of belonging. The work that we do- there's times, and maybe it's just me, but that it can feel so lonely, it can feel so isolating. And maybe- I don't know, all I know is this work, the life that I've lived. All I know is the work that I do. But it feels like in this work, you can't do it alone. You absolutely can't do it alone. You need to have somebody else who you know, you're married to a brilliant criminal defense attorney. I'm married to a brilliant criminal defense attorney. 

 

Colette Tvedt  1:08:35  
Aren't we lucky? 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:08:39  
I mean, yeah, exactly, but, but what do you think it is about, about the profession that we're doing, and why that's needed?

 

Colette Tvedt  1:09:00  
You know, I, I have a group of like eight criminal defense lawyer women friends here. I had dinner with my girlfriend, Liz last night and her husband, two other friends with Abe too. We, when any of us are getting ready to try a case, most of them are, like, serious murder cases. We would have, like, we brainstorm at someone's house, there's, there's snacks and there's wine, right, or alcohol, and we talk and we laugh and we go back and forth, and we have all greatly succeeded in the work that we do because of these friendships. And the friendships are really, I mean, I can tell you talking to Michelle Levine for an hour the other day, we could, we can go for months without talking, and then we can't get off the phone, right? Because we have so much to talk about and catch up about, and a lot of it's not about criminal defense, quite frankly. You know? 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:09:47  
Sure. 

 

Colette Tvedt  1:09:47  
And even when I'm with my other girlfriends, we don't talk cases when we're not doing the thoughtful brainstorming issues. So the importance of it is that you could die in this work we have. We you. You and I, know of people that have had heart attacks. We know of people that have had very serious addiction issues. People that have had mental breakdowns in this work. It is the hardest job. I always say it's like being triaging in an emergency room every single day. People are bleeding out and where they're trying to, like, you know, put the bubble gum in, right, and to hold it together. So if we don't have friends, and we don't have each other, and I think in our friends, in the legal community, we understand how, how lonely this could be, how isolating it could be. I mean, I, you, you and I are very similar, right? We and we've, we have talked a lot, and so if you don't have friends like that, then you just you couldn't- and you know what, even when you're in that moment of sheer despair, if you could pick up the phone and talk to, you know, call me, or I can call you, or vice versa, our friends, that's the moment. We're all very private people in some weird way we could be. You know, I consider myself sometimes an introverted extrovert, but if I'm in Crisis or I'm sad, I have people I know I could pick up the phone with, and I know that they will listen and talk to me. So, you know it this is a hard profession, and we do have to take care of each other.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:11:17  
Yeah, you know, Joe Bugni's episode was recently published, and one of the things that Joe talked about was, you know, you have to cure the cancer, cure the cancer, cure the cancer. But we're also walking through it in a different way than people who provide services like a doctor, you know? I mean, that's fantastic work. I'm not saying anything, but our clients are coming to us in a way that really gets to their core of their humanity, because it's almost as if, how I see it is the prosecution, the punishment system, is trying to cull them from our community. They're trying to kick them out. Nobody else wants them, except for us, and you know, and so we're both asked to, like, hold on to them, and then with our other hand, like, fight with a sword against everybody else. And it's almost as if you're being, I don't want to say, pulled in different directions, but it's, it's a different weight, which I gladly accept. I am grateful to have it. But this is where community, to me, is so needed, because I don't know that anybody else can really get that idea of you're having to accept somebody else that everybody else wants to kick out while you fight for their chance.

 

Colette Tvedt  1:12:41  
It's so true. And you know, I think the biggest- in July of 2024, our office started representing youth in municipal court, so they're not- and you want to talk about your guts being ripped out because of how a 10 year old kid is treated and targeted, and now they're wearing that when, when your brain is in development and you're told you're a bad kid, you're you know, you're never going to you're never going to succeed, you're this, you're that, and you- you are criminalized, right? So when you come out of court, sometimes when you are seeing the worst things happen to children, you need to have community and to have people that you can talk to. Because if you walk out of that Youth Court on Thursday afternoon and you are witnessing some horrific stuff, and people say, "Well, it's, you know, it's no big deal. It's just that school ticket, the school fight", but how they're treated when they by, this- by the time they walk into that courtroom, it's, it's really despicable. So I'm really glad that I have people that I could talk to, and then have people that are working in that- that section, like that, are really great. So it- then, well, you know, we're talking about all the good clients, right? We've also had clients that have just yelled, yelled, yelled, yelled, yelled, then called us every name in the book. And no matter what advice you give they- they're going to be calling, you know, they're going to be making jail calls like, 1500 times. You know, it's like, it's not all easy, right? And that those cases are hard too. So, you know, this is- this, this work is hard on so many levels. But you know, we're blessed be- that we have, you know, the community of defense lawyers that we have surrounded ourselves with.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:14:22  
Yeah, I know you're a big reader. I know you- you read a lot, and I remember you telling Anna, my daughter, the producer here about you're just recently reading "Covenant of Water". Let me give you a quote from "Covenant of Water" that I thought might resonate with what we've talked about, right? This is a big Amachi?Is that the character's name, the quote is, "she's forgotten what it's like to see so many at worship. To feel bodies all around. To be part of the fabric instead of a thread torn from the hole". 

 

Colette Tvedt  1:15:02  
Hmm, there you go. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:15:03  
And- That's what I feel like these communities are, right? Is so often it's easy for us to feel like a thread torn from the hole. And my hope is, is that you know, this, us, you know all of these talkings... it can just, it can feel like the bodies are all around us because, you know, if we want to have others belong, we need to make sure that we feel like we belong. And so you, you're somebody that makes me feel belong, that I belong to a bigger and larger community, Collette, and you've always done that with open arms. I didn't quite get the Statue of Liberty quote when I walked in, but I felt very welcome all the time when you're around. So thank you so much for- for making sure that none of us are, as it says here, threads torn from the hole.

 

Colette Tvedt  1:15:53  
Yeah. Thank you so much. Aaron and I- it's been a pleasure. You know, we've, like I said, You've been a friend, a colleague for many years. I really grateful for the work that you're doing, and by having this podcast, you know, allowing us to share stories with other people, lawyers, and community members. So thank you for this opportunity. I really appreciate it.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:16:11  
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you. It's been fantastic, and we'll see you next time. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:16:25  
Thanks for listening to Sanctuary in the Jungle. This episode was brought to you by Nelson Defense Group and MadeDaily. Subscribe to Sanctuary now and never miss another episode. You can also sign up for our newsletter on our website and follow us on social media for new bonus content. We'll see you next time at the library for another episode. Until then, stay strong and carry the hope.