Joe bugni| Episode 03

Joe Bugni  0:00  
I go to work every day, and I take the hits, not because I hate the government, but because I love what's next to me.

 

Aaron Nelson  0:17  
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Sanctuary in the Jungle. I'm your host, Aaron Nelson. Today we have with us one of the best defense attorneys from our home state of Wisconsin, Joe Bugni. Joe was a federal defender for many years and now works in private practice in Madison. Joe reminds us that oftentimes being the best defender isn't about being the most aggressive or slick, but about connecting with humans, whether he's asking the judges questions instead of making speeches, writing briefs people look forward to reading, or being brave enough to throw a penalty flag in court. He is the model of a sanctuary builder. He is such a big heart. He gives and gives and gives. He'll also tell us about what it looks like when giving gets to be too much. If you want to learn from the best, keep listening and join me in welcoming Attorney Joe Bugni. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:07  
Well, welcome to Sanctuary in the Jungle. I'm so excited to be here today with my guest, Joe Bugni. Thanks for coming, Bugni.

 

Joe Bugni  1:14  
Oh, thank you very much. Now, this is a great opportunity and great honor.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:18  
Oh, we've been-this is the third or fourth recording. I can't I can't recall, but I'm super excited. We're going to start rolling them out soon. So happy that you're- made the drive up from Madison. Just tell us a little bit about us. I know you're famous in my world. You're famous everywhere, here in Wisconsin, amongst criminal defense attorneys, but you're an attorney in Madison.

 

Joe Bugni  1:38  
I am. I grew up in Milwaukee, south side of Milwaukee. My dad was factory worker for, and then had his own struggles, and my mom was a teacher. Grew up normal middle class background. Was really benefit, benefited from public school. I got a great public education at Riverside High School. I was a good football player. Doors were opened. I went to Cornell for undergrad. 

Aaron Nelson  2:04  
Nice. 

 

Joe Bugni  2:05  
And then discerned that I was going to be a teacher. That didn't really work out too well. Had a conversion experience, discerned the priesthood for a little bit, and ultimately decided I was supposed to marry my wife, the woman who is my wife, and then went to law school for a little bit. Went and clerked for three years in the District Court in Florida, two years on the Court of Appeals in Chicago. We were based in South Bend, but we would go to court in Chicago. 

 

Aaron Nelson  2:11  
Okay. 

 

Joe Bugni  2:35  
And then went to work at the federal defenders in Milwaukee. 

 

Aaron Nelson  2:38  
Yeah, and now you're working with a firm in Madison. 

 

Joe Bugni  2:40  
Yep, yeah, second best law firm in this state, as we like to say.

 

Aaron Nelson  2:44  
Haha, yeah. The top law firm in this state. I remember 1995, I think it was, when Steve Hurley was teaching an evidence class, and I thought he was the God of all things legal, and he was the lawyer I wanted to be. And I remember a time after I graduated, and came working up here, friends with Marcus Berghahn, who's a colleague of yours, and he got to work-he works with you now, right? 

 

Joe Bugni  3:10  
Yeah, it's great.

 

Aaron Nelson  3:11  
And he was working at the firm when we graduated. And I think one of the first Christmas presents, you know how everybody's like sending something... I got a Hurly Burlish coffee mug, and I can't, I was so excited, so proud to have that. So it's an honor to have you here, somebody from the firm, one of the the leaders in our in our state. So thank you. 

 

Joe Bugni  3:31  
Thank you. 

 

Aaron Nelson  3:32  
So growing up in Milwaukee, kind of a blue collar background. 

 

Joe Bugni  3:35  
Very much. Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  3:36  
How do you think that has influenced you, not only in just your life, but in the, in the legal career?

 

Joe Bugni  3:41  
That's a great question. It's, I wouldn't say it defines me, but it's everything of who you are, you know, like how you relate to people, my expectations of people, the way that I work. You know, my dad was very demanding. 

 

Aaron Nelson  3:41  
Okay. 

 

Joe Bugni  3:41  
It was very- I always tell my kids they didn't grow up with Helen and Larry Bugni. So they were very demanding, both in the way I had charity towards other people, you know, like Mrs. Pearl across the street, we always would shovel her sidewalk or cut her lawn. There was just an expectation of neighborliness. And then also just being able to go without. You know, when you grow up very low middle class... 

 

Aaron Nelson  4:20  
Yup. 

 

Joe Bugni  4:20  
You're just kind of used to it. You uh- I only had one backpack for all of high school. My dad always made me wear a- he was an Army guy, so he always made me wear a field jacket, which are indestructible. 

 

Aaron Nelson  4:31  
Yeah, yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  4:32  
They're also not very cool.

 

Aaron Nelson  4:34  
They can go retro occasionally, but generally speaking, not cool.

 

Aaron Nelson  4:37  
No, no, not cool at all. And there was just an expectation that we would work hard. It was, it was bring your lunch pail to work every day, and you didn't complain, and you just knew that you had a job to do.

 

Aaron Nelson  4:37  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  4:37  
So...

 

Aaron Nelson  4:38  
I grew up in a- My father was a mechanic, worked at the gas station, service station with him. So did my sister, so did my brother. My mom worked there, and so I've always thought that those roots are just who I am, right? That it helps me to communicate. It just also helps me to kind of like appreciate where I'm at now, in a room filled, in a library filled with books. But it's not necessarily something that my parents came from. I mean, they're high school educated, smart, but they weren't seeking out information from books in the same way that they allowed me to be in that world. Same for you?

 

Joe Bugni  5:30  
Oh, absolutely. I mean, my family's a little bit different. I've written about this before, so I don't mind sharing it. But my dad came from a wildly successful family. So his- there used to be a company called Allis Chalmers, and they were, made tractors and all this stuff. West Allis in Milwaukee is named after that. And so his grandfather was a president of it, and he was like, going to be the sky on this very wealthy family. And, well, I'd say successful. He then went to Vietnam and came out with his own, his own wounds, and that sort of, I wouldn't say defined, but it was a big driving factor for the next 20 years that really affected the way that he looked at the world and the way that he dealt with things. So his was more of: he was in a place where he understood that he wanted more for his family, but it was more based upon the principles of virtue, and it was more on discipline. So I always remember he would always tell me stories. That's how he related to me. We had a, I wouldn't say a difficult relationship, but just your dad's going through his own thing... He's not always there, you know, and so- but he'd always tell me stories, and he would inspire me with stories. I remember he would tell me about the guys who had come back from World War II, and how they were so thankful to go to college that they would fall asleep, you know, like studying. Well, I had just been in the Battle of the Bulge. So what does that matter? You know, and like, and how I needed to appreciate this opportunity for an education. But nothing was taken for granted. 

 

Aaron Nelson  7:05  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  7:05  
And he's like: "Look, nothing's going to be given to you. You got to work." And there was that aspect of it, but then there was also the aspect of he was always honest. I don't think, I think he told me once that he told a lie in second grade. He got whipped, and that was the last lie ever told. So he never, he didn't tolerate... like, honesty. You had to be a man of your word. Zone above all, that's it. Don't talk back to your mom. It wasn't like, a very complex moral code, but it was pretty much, you know, don't talk back to your mom. Don't lie. Work hard,. Stop complaining. So, so-

 

Aaron Nelson  7:41  
There's a lot of good advice in those four-

 

Joe Bugni  7:43  
Yeah, yeah, those virtues, yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  7:45  
Yeah, absolutely. Did that- and then, so then from there, you decided you wanted to go to college, right? And are you the oldest in your family?

 

Joe Bugni  7:54  
I am, I am. I have a sister. I was lucky enough. I played football at a pretty high level, and so I thought I'd go to the University of Oshkosh, or I didn't really have high aspirations. I didn't really know, you know, my dad had his stuff going on, but I was, I was good. And so Cornell and, like, Yale and Penn wanted me to play football because I'd done well in school. And so if you, if you got a certain SAT and you can run block. They're all like, "Hey, come here." 

 

Aaron Nelson  8:19  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  8:21  
So, so that's what sort of drove the college, like it was just a door that otherwise was not open. Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  8:30  
That's great. One of our other guests, a professor, James Coleman, who's a law professor and at Duke right now, he wrote the article Sanctuary in the Jungle, but he was telling us about his opportunity to go to school and to just be around different people than he had been around before that were challenging him in different ways, that whether it be the professors or anything else. Did you have a similar experience like that in Cornell?

 

Aaron Nelson  8:55  
Oh, yeah, it was Cornell was just tremendous. I mean, there was definitely a part of it where I had a chip on my shoulder. You know, where you're like, you know, I couldn't believe kids had cars, you know, let alone a Mercedes. I've taken the bus my whole life. And, but it was cool, like the ideas that I was exposed to, the sense of excellence, but then also that there is no, how, what's the best way to say this... talent will rise. That was what I saw. I was like, "Look, once it comes to the test, it's a meritocracy." 

 

Aaron Nelson  9:29  
Yeah, yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  9:30  
And you know, once you're into that classroom, so long as you're there, you can thrive. 

 

Aaron Nelson  9:34  
Once you're in the room. 

 

Joe Bugni  9:35  
Once you're in the room. It was just if you could get that door open. And that's what Cornell taught me. It was that, and that hard work pays off. You know, there, there is definitely a sense that you can excel, and that just because you're a public school kid, another kid went to Phillips Exeter, if he's out drinking every night or getting high, you know, and you keep on showing up in the library at night, you're going to do much better than he will.

 

Aaron Nelson  9:58  
Yeah, that's another simple life lesson: show up. 

 

Joe Bugni  10:01  
That's it. 

 

Aaron Nelson  10:03  
Yeah, like, do the work show up, right? You said a little bit about a chip on your shoulder, and that's something that I've often thought I have. I too, have a high school public education. I went to a public college. I went to a public law school. And so it's all been public education. I'm not like some of the guests that I might bring that have wonderful backgrounds, Cornell or Harvard or something like that. And I've got, I think I got a chip on my shoulder about it. Sometimes I think it's good, and like most things, it's also got a flip side. There's a little bit of bad. Tell me about your chip.

 

Aaron Nelson  10:38  
I think it's mostly growing up poor. You know, you're like, poor, or, you know, we don't, weren't poor. Like, nobody repoed our house. Like, you know, I was a public defender, so I understand poor, but like, you know- 

 

Aaron Nelson  10:48  
Were you going hungry? 

 

Joe Bugni  10:50  
No, no, never. No. It was just more of like, I remember, there are two stories, maybe you'll cut these. But I remember the first time I realized that people go to the zoo other than on a field trip. I was probably 32 and I took my kids. I was like, what? And it was mind blowing to me. Like, one of those, I had to really take stock. And I was like, this is, wow. This is, we can just do this. You can just do this. Like, that was, that was amazing to me, and that there was this, these avenues open to me that I didn't really understand. And I don't know if it was just a blockage or what it might be, but I remember one time all my friends, I don't remember what, like, what year it was, but they were all going to, you know, off on these fancy vacations. And my dad was like, I can take you down to Kenosha and go to the broad stop. I was like, "No, it's alright". 

 

Aaron Nelson  11:39  
There's a cheese shop there too, right?

 

Joe Bugni  11:39  
Yeah, Mars Cheese Castle. Exactly. That's where we're gonna go to.

 

Aaron Nelson  11:39  
If he got really fancy, he'd go to the Jelly Bean factory. There you go.

 

Aaron Nelson  11:39  
There you go. That would have been a nice tour. I don't know if it was around in 92 or 93 but I think the chip on the shoulder has always been that I went to a tier four law school, and then there's always been a sense that I just didn't belong. I didn't really belong at Cornell, I didn't know. I didn't feel I belonged. I think I felt like I did well and got what I could out of it, but I never felt like I belonged. And then I think there was always a sense in the federal courts that I didn't really belong, you know, like I was always a little bit-

 

Aaron Nelson  12:17  
Not good enough. 

 

Joe Bugni  12:18  
Yeah, a little bit, yeah, yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  12:19  
Which sometimes can be a good thing, because you're striving, right? I mean, you're always, you're always wanting to do things, but obviously, at some point, life is about feeling like you belong.

 

Aaron Nelson  12:32  
Yeah, I still don't ever-I mean, you know, part of it's imposter syndrome, part of it is um, I think that, as a criminal defense attorney, you don't always belong. You know, it's sort of like this courthouse family. 

 

Aaron Nelson  12:45  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  12:46  
You know, where the district attorney and the judges, and they're all very comfortable and, and you're there with somebody they're trying to put in prison.

 

Aaron Nelson  12:52  
Yeah, it's jumping ahead a little bit, because I want to talk about community and other things, but I recently had a trial, and it was here in St Croix County, and it was five days, and for whatever reason, I woke up on day five, and I was going to give my closing that day. And I never done this before. I sent a text out to just 10 non-lawyer friends, just like "I feel so alone. Will somebody just come and watch my closing". You know, and somebody, and a friend of mine did, and even those that didn't, they just gave me some love back. And here I am. Been doing this 30 years. It's my community. You know, I've had some successes, and it's still-I felt so alone that morning, so deeply alone.

 

Aaron Nelson  13:38  
Oh, it's, I think it's real. I think when people fail to acknowledge that... and I always try to preemptively do that, you know, whether it's writing a note or sending a my clients who are in jail or just send them a birthday text, but also just trying to be the most supportive guy. You know, if somebody's in trial, I'll be like, "Hey, can I get you lunch? Or, like, what can I do?" 

 

Aaron Nelson  13:57  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  13:58  
Because we are so alone, you know, like it's just us at our table with our client, and there, nobody's cheering for us.

 

Aaron Nelson  14:04  
Nobody's cheering for us. 

 

Joe Bugni  14:05  
Maybe, maybe our client's mom. 

 

Aaron Nelson  14:07  
Yeah, yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  14:07  
And our client, but that's it, and-

 

Aaron Nelson  14:10  
And that cheering is often rightfully mixed with so much anger, because it's an appropriate feeling for a lot of people suffering injustice. 

 

Joe Bugni  14:18  
Yeah.

 

Aaron Nelson  14:19  
But it doesn't-it's not the same support. 

 

Aaron Nelson  14:22  
That's right. That's right. And there's, there's rarely high fives. Like, it's almost more of relief. 

 

Aaron Nelson  14:28  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  14:29  
It's just that you're just so relieved. I don't, maybe you're not like this, but I don't really relish the wins as much as they're a relief. 

 

Aaron Nelson  14:29  
Yeah. Oh absolutely. 

 

Joe Bugni  14:31  
Like, it's just, you're like-

 

Aaron Nelson  14:37  
I'm relieved to feel relief, but you're right. It's, it's, it's not nearly the same as the crushing loss. 

 

Joe Bugni  14:50  
That's it. 

 

Aaron Nelson  14:51  
I mean, the loss can just crush you.

 

Aaron Nelson  14:53  
It crushes. Yeah. And you do feel so alone. I'm glad you reached out to people, because it's something I don't do enough of, where even with, like, my wife and colleagues, sometimes, I'll try to say it, but I think some of those moments where you do feel so alone, especially in trial, where you've been taking a beating and you just wished you had somebody there to like, you know, pat you on the butt, or be like, "hey, like you did great", or they said "we're going to get through this."

 

Aaron Nelson  15:20  
And even for me, I mean, I'm like you, I think we, we work in a place where there's support. You have a firm, there's other lawyers. We have friends that are lawyers. We have family that know. But at least in that moment, for me, it was important to have somebody in my community, somebody outside of my legal community, to just like, know what I was. I am having a hard time articulating it right now. And my friend recently asked, he's like, "why'd you send that text out?" And other than to just be like, it just, it's important to have the community know what we're doing.

 

Aaron Nelson  15:53  
I think that's, yeah, I've never done that. That's something I would like to do. I did. My mom did come to my first closing.

 

Aaron Nelson  16:00  
That's great. But that's, hey, that's, I mean, parents, you know, they're gonna love you unconditionally. They're gonna be there all the time. But it's still, even at our age, it still means something, right? 

 

Joe Bugni  16:11  
Absolutely. 

 

Aaron Nelson  16:12  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  16:13  
As a criminal defense law firm, protecting our clients' privacy is everything. When we set out to upgrade our website, we wanted more than just a site. We needed an all-in-one solution to safeguard client data and make content marketing easier. The last thing we can afford is a data breach or a patchwork of tools that don't talk to each other. That's why we chose MadeDaily for our website. In secure digital headquarters, with MadeDaily, our clients can securely upload documents, complete intake forms, and communicate with us, all inside a private client portal that's encrypted end-to-end. It even links directly to our law practice software, Smokeball, so our team doesn't waste time duplicating files or juggling logins. Everything is connected. Everything stays secure. MadeDaily Secure Digital Headquarters gives us peace of mind, and it gives our clients confidence that their most personal information is protected. Learn more at madedaily.com. Your business, one secure place. 

 

Aaron Nelson  17:15  
So this is, you know, Sanctuary in the Jungle, and I think of- what I'm trying to discuss here is like, how we can have a sanctuary, but the sanctuary is a place where there's rational decision making, right? There's reason that is used. But that seems so cold; it seems so hard logic, right? And then I want compassion. I want dignity, and I want respect. And in some ways, I feel like that seems so soft, like those are just-

 

Joe Bugni  17:49  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  17:49  
Soft things. And so, what do you think when you think of, you know, sanctuary in this legal context?

 

Aaron Nelson  17:58  
You know, the answer is really twofold. Like One: I think of what a real sanctuary used to be. And I don't know if the article really touches upon it as much, but sanctuary was actually a biblical concept. And it was the cities that were set up in Deuteronomy, where, if you did commit a crime against somebody, where before it was "Look, the family members are just going to get revenge. You better watch out. We might bring you before a judge, whatever." But you could go to any one of those, I think it was 10 or 12 cities. You were untouchable there. 

 

Aaron Nelson  18:28  
Wow. 

 

Joe Bugni  18:29  
Yeah. And so that continued through the Middle Ages, where they, like all churches were considered sanctuaries. So, you know, in Hunchback of Notre Dame, that's where Esmeralda goes, and that's where, I think that's her name, and that's where you know the Quasimodo is. And so there is this place where the law will not touch you, that you are allowed to live out your life, and that we realize that you're untouchable away from that. So a sanctuary is a place that you're protected. You're protected from the violence, the storms of rage, the feelings of hatred, but also just this, the concept of revenge. Really like, you know, and we might say that um, well revenge, but it's state-sponsored revenge, whereas retributive justice, right? But within the sanctuary, it says, you know, we will not exert that. So I think there's that first aspect. But then the Sanctuary in the Jungle,  what I've also liked, and what you touched upon, was the ability to have reason. Where the passions of the community, the victims or the- they're, they have the right to call for justice, right? Or they're very upset. And there's aspects where other people have vested interests in this. And the courts are supposed to be that place where it's detached decision making. Where they're not going to be bent to the whims. They're not going to allow those passions to come within the confines of that place. And so that's what- I see the courtroom in that same vein, is that you should be protected from all of the winds and the storms that are brewing outside, and this is where we're going to allow it to, justice to be done.

 

Aaron Nelson  20:14  
Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you. Detached decision making is, you know, all of that other stuff, but it really is, we were talking a little bit about stoicism before, and, and how to get into that mindset. But that's really what it is, because we want the best result possible. 

 

Joe Bugni  20:29  
That's right. 

 

Aaron Nelson  20:29  
And you need to somewhat be detached. 

 

Joe Bugni  20:32  
Absolutely. 

 

Aaron Nelson  20:33  
You know you're, you had a career in as a clerk, as a writer, and I want to to get into this, because you're such a prolific writer and such a wonderful writer, just a beautiful writer. I've read the stuff that you put out in motions, in sentencing memorandums, and your ability to, I think, make a sanctuary on a piece of paper is just remarkable. 

 

Joe Bugni  21:00  
Oh, thanks. 

 

Aaron Nelson  21:01  
Yeah. And so what I, what I'm, what I'm seeing you when you do this is... Well, maybe before we get that, you're, I know you've been in front of judges before, obviously, and sometimes you've had to give the same argument, or a same type of argument. Immigration: you're in front of the same judge over and over and over. And maybe in federal court, you knew what the judge was going to do. But I've heard tell that you made a judge actually get up and say, "you know, I think I need to rethink this. Bugni might be right here."

 

Aaron Nelson  21:31  
Yeah, so it's been, I, you know, just like any public defender, you're gonna, you're gonna throw the same game a few times. You know, like you only do 1000 bond reviews, and really have to- you know where the judge's strike zone is, and you kind of want to stay within that strike zone. But there are some that the strike zone is so fundamentally flawed that you just have to continue to, like, hammer it unless it benefits your client. Then you're like, "Oh, judge that strike zone is just, that's perfect. Perfect. Put it right down the middle." The one that you're referring to, I've always believed that you can't capitulate to the injustice of allowing people to be treated differently, in the sense of the way that we have with undocumented immigrants. And so when I was when I was young, or like much younger, I would have a very heavy docket of undocumented immigrant cases. And so it was 1326, that's where you cut your teeth. 

 

Aaron Nelson  22:28  
Okay? 

 

Joe Bugni  22:28  
And if you got a third of your cases are 1326's... well, you're gonna have to be making the same arguments. 

 

Aaron Nelson  22:34  
And this is in federal court?

 

Joe Bugni  22:36  
This is federal court, yeah, in Milwaukee. And so I knew where the judge's strike zone was, and I would try to always put the ball within that strike zone to be like, "Well, you said this about that guy, but it's clearly, you know, that's true of all those other clients. But here, this guy is totally different." Well, every one of my guys was, I was trying to distinguish that they're totally different. But I also wanted to attack his strike zone, because I knew the judge. I'd see him on the street. I know he respected me, and the fundamental concept that he was working under was that this punishment is meant because we need to deter people. And I said, I was like, "Look, Judge, the sentences in Milwaukee, Wisconsin are not going to deter what's happening in Guatemala, what's happening in Ecuador, what's happening in Mexico. To drive these people." 

 

Aaron Nelson  23:23  
Sure. 

 

Joe Bugni  23:23  
"And you need to-". 

 

Aaron Nelson  23:24  
There's no connection. 

 

Joe Bugni  23:25  
Yeah, you, that might be how you justify your sentence to yourself, because all he's done, or this guy is all, pretty much all men was work. You know, if you're here and you're like, you know, shoot somebody, there's a much different sentence. 

 

Aaron Nelson  23:40  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  23:41  
But most of the guys were just picked up because of a traffic stop or something else, and they were just working at a dairy, or they're working on the south side in a restaurant. And I really started to challenge him that the way he was approaching these cases was wrong. And I do it respectfully and on paper and everything.

 

Aaron Nelson  23:57  
And yeah, and you, you even now use the word challenge, but the way I heard tell was you'd listen to what the judge said. 

 

Joe Bugni  24:03  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  24:04  
And then you come back with the judge's strike zone, as you put it, and you'd put it in his world. And so maybe that's a challenge, maybe that's attack, but I see it as somebody that's like- you're listening. At its core, you were coming there and showing him respect. You were showing and modeling some way, a sanctuary by just simply listening.

 

Aaron Nelson  24:26  
Yeah, well, it's a dialogue. I felt like over the repeated aspect of it was, I didn't think he wanted to be wrong, but I thought that he had been... it's so very easy in federal court and maybe even state court, to sort of mail it in. You're in the strike zone. You're like, "Look, buddy, you're getting three years. That's the best you could ever get". And my mentor was this guy, Craig Alby, and he was always pushing me to do better than what anybody else could get. He's like, "Look, here's the normal range, here's a going rate. Try to cut off a third. That's what you want to do. You always want to cut it down. Cut it down". 

 

Aaron Nelson  24:58  
You're changing the window then, too. 

 

Joe Bugni  25:01  
Absolutely for everybody else, you know, like, "Oh my gosh. You know, Louise got a year and a day. So clearly, you know, Jorge should get, you know, six months", or whatever it might be. And I looked at it as "Judge, I need to help you see. I know that you're an honest judge". And I really did believe that about him. 

 

Aaron Nelson  25:19  
Sure. 

 

Joe Bugni  25:19  
"But I think that you're misunderstanding the way that the whole system is operating". And I remember it was, it was probably later in the Obama administration, and he's like, "Reading the news now and seeing everything that's going on, I'm almost convinced that Bugni is right, and that he's been right the whole time, and I've been, you know, sentencing these, you know, like these cases, wrong". 

 

Aaron Nelson  25:24  
Remarkable. 

 

Joe Bugni  25:25  
And he then went down to like, I think it was ultimately close to a year and a day. And I remember thinking like, it felt like a lot of hitting my head against the wall. And there was a great public defender there. Her name was Joanna Perini. And I remember being in the elevator in the federal courthouse, and I think I cried. I was so just disheartened by this guy who, all he did was work. Getting, you know, like two years in prison, whatever it was, but it was just- and I had failed. I felt like that, to move the strike zone in that regard, and being in the elevator with her, and then thinking about that, when he did kind of come around in his thinking was like, you know, Eduardo deserved better. You know, Eduardo deserved that insight. 

 

Aaron Nelson  26:11  
Sure.

 

Joe Bugni  26:11  
You know, but it costed. 

 

Aaron Nelson  26:19  
Or your last guy. 

 

Joe Bugni  26:22  
That's it, but it costed.

 

Aaron Nelson  26:25  
Yeah, you're on guy number 20, and you're like, what happened to Alan, or Billy, or Charlie-

 

Joe Bugni  26:31  
That's it. 

 

Aaron Nelson  26:31  
Or David, or all these other guys. Before you get to where you're going. 

 

Aaron Nelson  26:34  
And he's still doing time? 

 

Aaron Nelson  26:36  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  26:36  
He did no less than, than, like, this guy. That was, that was one of those, those big moments in my career where I- it both formed how I thought about things, but also, when you're a repeat customer, you don't have to take where the judge is. And just accept it and be like, "well, that's where the strike zone is". You know, you're like, "Judge, I think you might be mistaken on this. I think you might be mistaken on this". And, you know, I still do that all the time.

 

Aaron Nelson  27:02  
Oh, it's- as you know, you my wife, Liesl Nelson was a longtime public defender. She's now we have the privilege of having her work here with us, and all of her brilliance and intelligence and smarts, but she was in one county with one judge for 22 years. And the things that you can do if you're a repeat customer...

 

Joe Bugni  27:24  
Oh, changes everything. 

 

Aaron Nelson  27:24  
You can change the culture. 

 

Joe Bugni  27:25  
That's right. 

 

Aaron Nelson  27:25  
You can change the environment. 

 

Joe Bugni  27:28  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  27:28  
And so for me, I think of it sometimes sanctuary. I have difficulty in not, I shouldn't- it's hard for me to figure out when I go into the judge's courtroom, it's his place. This is his place. They create the culture, they create the environment. And I'm coming into that and I'm trying to create a sanctuary, right? And so that's why I find it so remarkable about your writing and your story here. Is you're going into somebody else's house, somebody else's building, and you're changing the culture.

 

Aaron Nelson  27:51  
I think that's what every public defender needs to do. And that's what- that's why you need public defenders who are there for a long time. You can't just go there for a cup of coffee. 

 

Aaron Nelson  28:13  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  28:13  
And then, you know, be like, "I'm ready to go!" 

 

Aaron Nelson  28:16  
Yep. 

 

Joe Bugni  28:16  
But instead, you sit there and you're like, "Look, I'm here in the for the long run". And the more you hold yourself with dignity, the more that you are really pushing against the system. And there are times, like, I'm sure Liesl or any public defender will admit, that you didn't burn down the house in every case because you have the credibility that you had to keep, you know? 

 

Aaron Nelson  28:36  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  28:36  
That's that's very true, and those are hard decisions you have to make, but you're creating that sanctuary that you're standing up there time and time again to say, "Judge, you're reading the bail reform act wrong. Judge, you're, you know, like, you're not actually seeing the way the sentencing should be". And sometimes it hurts because you're, you know, getting told no over and over again. But you have to be creative, and you have to keep on pounding the stone. I don't know if that's in the books of the sto- the Pound the Stone has been one of my favorite.  

 

Aaron Nelson  29:02  
Okay. 

 

Joe Bugni  29:03  
Do you know that analogy? 

 

Aaron Nelson  29:06  
I could- tell me about it. 

 

Joe Bugni  29:08  
It just comes from the Stonecutters Credo, which is something I've held on to when I was a public defender, where- I won't try to mimic the poem, it's just too beautiful,, but it's the concept that the first 99 blows that the stone cutter delivers, aren't what splits the rock, you know? And the 100th is, but the 100th is no more effective than the first 99 and it's just as necessary. All of those, but you have to take the fact that, like you're showing up every day to hit this block. 

 

Aaron Nelson  29:38  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  29:39  
One day it will break. 

 

Aaron Nelson  29:40  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  29:41  
It will break.

 

Aaron Nelson  29:42  
The problem, I mean, that you obviously recognized in the elevator in that moment, was: you're so thankful that you had the 100th strike, and you got to change it for the person that was the beneficiary of the 100th strike and the 100 and first and the 100 and second. But we're not talking about strikes. We're talking about 99 human beings. 

 

Joe Bugni  30:00  
Absolutely. 

 

Aaron Nelson  30:01  
Right?

 

Aaron Nelson  30:03  
Oh, it's so hard. It's so hard. But you you hold out the hope that the 91st is going to be a little bit better than the 90th, you know? And it's a little bit better, and it's a little bit better, and, yeah, you want to change it in some fundamental ways, but we live in a broken justice system.

 

Aaron Nelson  30:18  
Yeah, you know part of, both in those sentencing stories that I've heard in your writings, it seems as if, you know, the philosophical concept is of other minds that I'm sure you're, you know, you're just you're thinking about what the listener is going to think, but that at its core is respect and dignity that you're showing to the listener. That you're showing to the judge in this case, that you're like, "I know you're worried about X, I know you're worried about Y, I know you're worried about z". And that's what I see you do in your writing so often. Is that something you learned from a particular place over time, the crucible of excellence that just got you there? 

 

Aaron Nelson  30:59  
That's a great question. I haven't really reflected upon it. I think Al's- Craig Albee was the one who, really, he was the ultimate foil. You know, he would often call me on my BS, but he also would be like, "you don't need all this". There's a guy, John Campion, Emma's dad. I remember he told me reading Albee's writing was, it was so it was such a paradigm shift. That- here was a guy who didn't go with the normal constructs that everybody else puts in their sentiment. Was a bunch of fluff. And Gall says this, and you should know this about, you know, like, da da da. 

 

Joe Bugni  31:34  
Yeah, yeah. Here's what Galleon says. 

 

Joe Bugni  31:35  
An what Galleon says, and you have all these fine factors... da da da, always probation... is that Alb's would tell you to zero in on the issue that mattered most, and what- so like, what I was able to do with him and with being a repeat player is like, "Judge. You don't care about specific deterrence. You don't care here about this. What you care about is retribution, and this is what you're going to be struggling with on this case. Let me talk about that, because that's what I think you're going to be dialed into". And then I would just try to pitch right to that issue. And it allowed me to cut down everything else, but as to like, I think your core question, I've always approached all writing, and I think hopefully my whole life, from a sense of humility and that it's not about me, right? Like, this isn't for me to write this great piece of work that I'm like, "Oh-"

 

Aaron Nelson  31:36  
Look how clever Joe is.

 

Joe Bugni  31:55  
Yeah, that's it. Like my mom to read it, and she's like, "Oh, honey, you're doing such a great job. That M-dash is so great". Instead, it's like, is this going to be persuasive? Is this going to catch the fish that I need caught? Because somebody's life is on the line and, and it can't be about my ego. It can't be about what I think is really great. It has to be about what's persuasive. And when you, when you look at writing and all advocacy from a place of humility, it quickly allows it to be framed in probably the most creative way possible. Because the creativity is to say, "I want to make sure I get the fish. It's not that I feel good in the fishing". And once you take yourself outside of that, and you put yourself in the shoes of: all that matters, is what Eduardo gets. All that matters is what happens here. 

 

Aaron Nelson  33:17  
Sure. 

 

Joe Bugni  33:17  
Then it really is not about you.

 

Aaron Nelson  33:20  
And there's, there's a fine distinction there, because in your writing that I've read, it's very personal. 

 

Joe Bugni  33:25  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  33:26  
Your writing is very- here's, here's, here's the process I've gone through, Judge. Here's how I've come to know this person. Here's what I've worried about. You know? Here's all of the things that I've done. I mean, the sentencing memo I recently read in prep for this on your client who was supposed to get 30 years, and she got three years, and all of those guidelines, but it was very much personal from Joe's eyes. 

 

Joe Bugni  33:50  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  33:51  
But it wasn't about Joe. 

 

Joe Bugni  33:52  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  33:53  
I don't know how you did that.

 

Aaron Nelson  33:55  
That was- so she, she had a great story that you could tell. Anytime you can talk about your client swimming through a river of alligators to stop being, you know, a victim of genocide. You got a pretty good lead. It was good material to work with, but I think part of it was-

 

Aaron Nelson  34:14  
And that's not, you're not just making that up. That's like a true story. That's what happened to her.

 

Aaron Nelson  34:18  
Yeah, no, I love that woman, like you wouldn't believe. Like, she is one of my favorite clients. We, she texts and calls and we, you know, she's excellent. No, that was a true story, but part of it was getting to really know her. And that takes- there's a great public defender, longtime public defender, Deedee Watson, and she would always say, "you got to rock with your clients". And I used to try to go, like, I wouldn't say every Friday afternoon, but most Friday afternoons, I just go to the jail and just sit with people and just talk to them about what, you know, "how's it going?" They'd be like, "Oh, it's bad news?" I'm like, "No, I'm seeing how you're doing. You know, checking in". And once you understand a person... there's a great line in a book called Brideshead Revisited. It says, "To know all is to forgive all". And that line has always stuck with me, because once you know all, and what it means by that is like once you see it through their, their eyes, once you know all the circumstances, what they were dealing with, you kind of forgive. You can understand a little bit more. Now that that falls apart with a sociopath, but for most of our clients to know how hard they were working at sobriety. And you know, sobriety is an easy one, but like, I've always felt that judges get it wrong when they focus on the slip up nine months into, like, their probation. And I'm like, "No, no judge, there were 269 days that he woke up and he did exactly what we wanted him to do". 

 

Aaron Nelson  34:41  
Absolutely. 

 

Joe Bugni  34:57  
But then when they closed down the Kwik Trip, and when his car broke down, and when, you know, he found out that, like, you know, his fiance was cheating on him, it was too much. And we can't get mad at him for the 270th day. We're disappointed. 

 

Aaron Nelson  36:01  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  36:01  
And we want to help him with that. But, man, that's a lot of factors. Let's talk about this 269 days.

 

Aaron Nelson  36:07  
And you, at least, when I've read your stuff, it's very much of the: "I know you're worried about this 270th day, and you have every reason to be worried about this. These are important things. But also, let me tell you about this". 

 

Joe Bugni  36:20  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  36:21  
And so it's coming from this almost nonjudgmental way. "I don't blame you for thinking that, but maybe you didn't know all, and see all, let me tell you some of that other stuff that's missing", which is this kind of almost, it's a tone of humility, because you clearly know more than the listener. 

 

Joe Bugni  36:40  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  36:41  
You know more than the decision maker, but you're telling it to them in a way that I think allows them to hear it or listen to it.

 

Aaron Nelson  36:47  
And I think that's part of it is just, it's one: the humility to say, like, I know that he's- he or she is really going to try to give an honest judgment here, right? You know, sometimes I don't know if that's always the case, but I tend to think that it is. But then it's also widening the aperture. It's not trying to hide from the bad fact, right? Like, you can't hide from the bad- Alb's was always big on that. Like, look, you just got to brace it. And there's a great line, some English barristers like, "grab your nettles". And it just means, like, you got to grab the thorns, you know, rather than letting them bristle against you and then quickly pivoting and not doing it in, like, a weird way. You're like, "oh, you know, I know he shot him, but let's just talk about everything. I think, Judge, you're really getting caught up on this dead body. Instead you really want to get caught up on... Judge. This is what would bother you. You sentenced- I had one, was it you sentenced a person with an identi- almost identical facts in another case, right? And I know that you know that. That you remember that case, it's the same case, right? You're going to want to give her the same sentence, because you like to treat like alike. You know, that's exactly it. You just-

 

Aaron Nelson  36:48  
There's some value in consistency. 

 

Aaron Nelson  36:48  
Absolutely. "But you didn't know everything you should have known to give that woman 48 months. And I know you, Judge. You are a very good judge, and had you known these factors, you might have given her less. And you're going to want to say, 'Well, I wouldn't have given her less because of that', but you often give less. Those factors are actually present in my clients case". 

 

Aaron Nelson  37:15  
That's wonderful. 

 

Joe Bugni  37:15  
So, that was how I got much less on that case.

 

Aaron Nelson  37:15  
Yeah. So you're not attacking this decision. You're, you're, you're pulling it, you're pulling the other ones down. 

 

Joe Bugni  37:15  
Yeah, that's it. Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  37:15  
Right? And to even it out. Your quote about the nettles... tell me that again. 

 

Joe Bugni  37:15  
Oh, grab your nettles. 

 

Aaron Nelson  37:27  
Grab your nettles. Or, as the modern day poet that I tend to refer to: Eminem. 

 

Joe Bugni  37:27  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  37:30  
I think in is it Eight Mile? He says something, I have it written on the board. During his last rap battle, and when he's winning that, he says, "I know everything he's got to say against me". That's the, I mean, I know what you're going to do to attack me. 

 

Joe Bugni  38:08  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  38:09  
I know what you're worried about. I know I have some nettles, and you're going to- and you're going to try to exploit those, but you just got to deal with it, right? Because we've all got nettles.

 

Aaron Nelson  38:29  
Absolutely, yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  38:29  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  38:30  
We're not getting there if we don't. And I think also, like, I mean, that comes down to all advocacy, but you can't run from them, or think that the judge is gonna forget, like, that's an insult to their intelligence, right? 

 

Aaron Nelson  39:29  
Sure.

 

Joe Bugni  39:30  
By the same, I'd say the same standard, as an insult to the other side, not to take on their hardest argument. Like, I tend to always- there was a guy, Dan Graber. He was the best U.S. attorney. And he would just, he just beat me up left and right. Just like, he would outwork- I don't think he outworked me, but he would, he would definitely fight hard. And he was the one I feared going against the most, and I always prepared every case like I was going against Graber. And so I was just like... look, these are, these are my real- this, I'm going to, I'm not going to think that I can, you know, like, just skip over something. I'm not going to pretend like that, that won't be objected to. I need to prepare for that.

 

Aaron Nelson  40:12  
Yeah, how did you get to know the judges like that so you could read that? Is that just, again, the value of being in the same, you know, culture and environment on a daily basis, or on a weekly or monthly basis through the public defender, or there's some other magic that you had?

 

Aaron Nelson  40:28  
So, a lot of it was the- by just the virtue of the job. Right? I was also really lucky to be the head of the Federal Defender, and so, like, everyone would come back and complain. But I also, I'm also, like, a courthouse junkie. Like, I really love to watch good advocates. So, you know, that when a great lawyer would come to town, it's like when Steve Hurley came to Milwaukee... I'm watching Steve Hurley, you know, I want to see how Steve Hurley does it. I'm like, "Oh, that's so smooth". And I tend to also be a thief, where-

 

Aaron Nelson  40:58  
We are all thieves. You can't, you can't get, you can't get better in this business without being a thief.

 

Aaron Nelson  41:04  
You can't, you can't. And I- so Marcus Berghahn, who you referenced, a friend of yours, and he's a great lawyer. I would always steal his sentencing memos. I'm like, "Oh, that's clever. Oh, that- well done. Well done, Marcus. Dean Strang"... I would, I would take, I took from everybody. So I would watch a lot, and then I also tried to keep an eye on the docket, where I'd be like, "Hmm, that case seems a little bit just like mine, or I know what's going on. Let me see how the judge reacts to that, or what he's going for with this". So I had a good finger on the pulse, both with being in court, you know, often, and then also just going to watch. And I really enjoyed watching other advocates, I think, you know, you not just steal from what you see in the paper, but, like, also just the little things, like, "Judge, I just want to quibble. I can just quibble with one point that you made".

 

Aaron Nelson  41:56  
It's a great phrase. Yeah, yeah.

 

Joe Bugni  41:57  
Yeah, it's a great phrase. I didn't come up with it. 

 

Aaron Nelson  41:58  
Yeah, who's gonna, who's gonna be, like, sure, I guess no, no quibbling here.

 

Aaron Nelson  42:03  
Yeah, that's it, yeah. "Judge, I agree with almost everything you said, but just kind of quibble with one little piece". He's like "little that was the whole thing. That was my whole point". "Well, you phrase it that way, your honor, um"... And also, I had to, I do this thing that I don't think I- didn't invent it clearly, but I don't know who I stole it from... But I often ask the judge, rather than give a speech, I would say, "Judge, I can give a speech and but nobody here wants to sit here and have me drone on about things that don't matter. Like, what are you struggling with in this sentence? I've given you, you know, 20 pages of documents, all these letters. What are you really struggling with? You know what my ask is". And oftentimes the judge will then tell me. Hey-

 

Aaron Nelson  42:47  
Do they engage in that? Because I heard you did that in a, in a recent case that um, Professor Levine was, was bragging about your presentation and how you handled that. And she pointed that out exactly that you asked this question. And when I heard her tell that story, I thought, oh my gosh, but what if the judge doesn't doesn't engage?

 

Aaron Nelson  43:09  
I've never had a judge not engage. 

 

Aaron Nelson  43:10  
Well that. How do you set that up? 

 

Joe Bugni  43:13  
I just tell the judge, "Judge, I'm prepared to give you a very long speech that I think is quite good, but it's very clever and but it probably is going to hit all the marks. I know that you've read everything, and you've come in here kind of with a with a zone. You don't know exactly what sentence you're going to give, but there are points that you're struggling with. I might hit those, but I also might just like, give a speech on something that you've already thought or you also think is just ridiculous. I want to avoid the ridiculous, and I want to avoid the redundant. You know, what are you really struggling with in this?" And that's just usually how I set it up. I don't always say the ridiculous and redundant, but, like, you know, something quick to it. And I think also that if you give the judges the benefit of a very good sentencing memo, it shows that you've already framed what you're trying to do. 

 

Aaron Nelson  44:02  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  44:02  
And it also allows them to give you good insight into what they're really thinking.

 

Aaron Nelson  44:08  
Yeah, and you're also you're showing them dignity and respect. You're like, "I want to be- You're the decision maker, and I want to make sure that I'm listening to you or being able to address those things". So it's a fairness, it's a respect. No, there's a lot of stuff packaged into that. 

 

Joe Bugni  44:26  
Yeah, yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  44:26  
It's good. That's wonderful. 

 

Joe Bugni  44:27  
Thanks. 

 

Aaron Nelson  44:28  
No, I, I've, I'm definitely stealing that. Consider me a thief. 

 

Joe Bugni  44:32  
All right. 

 

Aaron Nelson  44:33  
So for, you know, it's sanctuary we often think of as criminal defense attorneys. I should just say: backup. As criminal defense attorneys, we often think of trials. 

 

Joe Bugni  44:42  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  44:42  
Trial, trial, trial, trial, trial. And we've been talking a lot about sentencing and about judges who are the decision maker. For me, there are a lot of trials, and it's a totally different setup to get a sanctuary in front of a jury, I think, than to go into the court and get sanctuary from a judge. 

 

Joe Bugni  45:03  
Yes. 

 

Aaron Nelson  45:04  
Does that make sense? 

 

Joe Bugni  45:04  
Absolutely. Absolutely. 

 

Aaron Nelson  45:05  
Tell me about that. What do you think about that?

 

Aaron Nelson  45:07  
I think if it- almost two fold, like, one: I'm a big process guy for trials. I think that oftentimes it is theatrical. We all know that right. 

 

Aaron Nelson  45:17  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  45:17  
You're lying yourself if you don't think it is. But, it's a process where the real trial has happened weeks or months beforehand, where you've set up everything you're, you're developing all that so that you can, with the freedom, perform and get to where you need to be with that. Because otherwise, I think younger lawyers are often- they're scrambling at the last minute. They're making, you know, they're making, they're worrying about motion of eliminating that doesn't really matter. 

 

Aaron Nelson  45:42  
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. 

 

Joe Bugni  45:42  
Like, instead, they should be worrying about the cross. But I think there's also a, an aspect of: the jurors want to respect what you're doing and, and they know that you're respecting them from your, your opening statement, your voir dire, through your opening statement, through the crosses. I tend to be very tight on my cross. I mimic what Albee drilled into me, and so my chapters are very tight. I'm getting in, getting out. You know, I always mock the idea of asynchronistic cross examination, because I was like, "Well, I don't know if you need to give it such a formal name. It just means an effective cross examination", like, I just want to go ask the questions. I want to get out, but I don't waste their time with a lot of, you know, filler. You know, I get in, I get out, I have what I want. And I think the jury, at least, I've gotten the feedback that when I'm speaking, the jury is actually like, they all sit up, you know? They're like, "Okay, let me see. He's really going to do something here". And sometimes it'll be just even the, the way that I try to respect the jury's time with some of my objections, you know, like, I tend to be like, "Judge, we stipulate to this", or whatever it might be. 

 

Aaron Nelson  46:55  
Okay. 

 

Joe Bugni  46:56  
Like, those aspects of it. But when it comes to the sanctuary in the jungle aspect of how a jury plays that... I think it's the ultimate arbiter, and it's what sets our Chris-, our criminal justice system apart. I know you know Steve Meyer. But he used to tell the story of like, the jury system has been dying, and there's very few lawyers who are still willing to do it, because it's hard and they're afraid and it's humiliating and it's costly, etc, right? But it's really where you're able to get 12 individuals from all walks of life to come here and to say, for this, I'm willing to take away this person's good name, you know? And there's a great line by Kingston Brewster. He used to be the president of Yale, and he was like Secretary of State. It's actually on his tombstone in New Haven, which says, like, the pres- I used to have it written out on a piece of paper above my screen at the Federal Defender. It was like, "the presumption innocence is nothing more and nothing less than assuming the best in the stranger". 

 

Aaron Nelson  47:56  
That's wonderful.

 

Joe Bugni  47:58  
Yeah. I was like, oh, like, because you don't know, like, it's no longer like small town where we know Johnny, you know? But it's- we assume the best. 

 

Aaron Nelson  48:07  
Literally the benefit of the doubt. 

 

Joe Bugni  48:08  
Exactly, exactly. And it's allowing the jury to do that, to put themselves, I know we're not allowed to say... in their shoes, but to-

 

Aaron Nelson  48:16  
I think we are. We can have that discussion later.

 

Aaron Nelson  48:19  
Okay, I love that. I will steal that. But that's where I see that sanctuary. Is that it is allowing for assuming the best within the stranger and assuming goodwill towards him. Am I convinced enough to take away his good name and his liberty? 

 

Aaron Nelson  48:37  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  48:37  
And once you have- you know, I think you would probably subscribe to the same theory. But like, there is always the play towards innocence in a trial. I have to shoot- show that they're innocent. That's what you know, the burden sometimes you're taking on, right? But there's always- you're going towards that. But then there's also the secondary one of reasonable doubt, and trying to educate the jury of: to what is to reasonable doubt. And that search for truth and allowing as the waves, you know, go between them, because their intention never, but there is evidence that goes towards either one, you know, that you're, you're going towards. So I think that's where the sanctuary is for me, within that jury system is, is enforcing the very best of who we are as a society, that we insist upon assuming the best in the stranger, and that we refuse to take away their liberty unless we are convinced, you know, so far beyond a reasonable doubt with the same certainty we would in our own affairs.

 

Aaron Nelson  49:31  
Yeah, no. Exactly one of my favorite things to stand up in front of a jury and talk about, in that sense in closing, is, you know, here you're required to give somebody the benefit of the doubt. And wouldn't that be a great way to live your life all the time? Wouldn't that be just wonderful if we could, and we can't. I get it out there in the jungle, out there in that world, we might get hurt. This might happen. We can't always give everybody the benefit of the doubt. But here you're required to be your best. You're required to do that, right? That's, that's, I think, just something that, again, gets them to aspire to be that. Right?

 

Joe Bugni  50:14  
Absolutely. No, I think you, I'm always about the aspiring of: you know, you looked me in your eye and in the eye, and you promised me that you would do this... And I'm holding you to that oath.

 

Aaron Nelson  50:25  
Sure, there's some of that, too. Yeah, absolutely. So for me, when I think of sanctuary with a judge and sanctuary with a jury, again, it's- I just thought of this now, is like with my struggles with a judge- 

 

Joe Bugni  50:39  
Yeah.

 

Aaron Nelson  50:39  
Is I'm punching up. 

 

Joe Bugni  50:40  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  50:40  
And I've got a real strong anti-authority, and I can get angry at the power if they're not listening. And so sometimes I just scream louder. 

 

Aaron Nelson  50:50  
Yeah.

 

Aaron Nelson  50:51  
And that's, that's just not effective, right? But juries, I never, you know, they are more powerful. They're all- but, but I don't- they're, they're my dad at the gas station, they're your, they're the blue collar people, they're the everyday people that haven't been tainted by law school. And so I feel like I'm just, I can't. It's not- I don't want to say like I'm punching down, like they're beneath me, but I just feel like it's a much easier way. I feel more relaxed talking to them than I do talking to somebody that I feel like is above me. Does that make any sense?

 

Aaron Nelson  51:26  
No, it does. I don't know if I struggle with that as much. I tend to talk. I mean, this is, like, the best compliment I've gotten about the way I am in trial is: I talk like I'm just at a bar. 

 

Aaron Nelson  51:38  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  51:39  
But that's all the way I talk to a judge, you know? I don't-

 

Aaron Nelson  51:42  
I think that- that's what I feel like in your writing. Your writing is very colloquial in a very- but it's very easy to read. 

 

Joe Bugni  51:50  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  51:50  
It's, it's not like, "Oh, this is going to be dense. I got to do some analysis". You get carried away by the story.

 

Aaron Nelson  51:56  
That's it, yeah. So I try to, you know, I try to look at, as everybody as equals, and not in like that I'm- I can pull rank on anybody, but just, we're all human beings trying to make the very best decisions in our own brokenness. 

 

Aaron Nelson  52:09  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  52:09  
You know, like we are all broken. The judge is broken. I'm broken. The prosecutor is broken. 

 

Aaron Nelson  52:15  
We're all flawed. Right?

 

Joe Bugni  52:16  
We're all flawed. Yeah.

 

Aaron Nelson  52:17  
So in the- in the trial. 

 

Joe Bugni  52:20  
Yeah.

 

Aaron Nelson  52:20  
And I know we're- to me, I've found- and maybe it's just where I'm at in my career, that they're longer trials. 

 

Joe Bugni  52:29  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  52:29  
But I almost wonder if there's not an advantage to that, too, because- you think so? 

 

Joe Bugni  52:37  
Oh, yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  52:37  
Absolutely, right? 

 

Joe Bugni  52:38  
Absolutely. 

 

Aaron Nelson  52:39  
I mean, because for me, at least sanctuary is, it's like when we're in trial, like the judge is on his best behavior. The DA is on his best behavior. Everybody is there on their best behavior. And then the jury's coming in to my world, even though it's not my courthouse, I can all of a sudden, like- I have more influence on it, and we're all behaving, I think, as best as we can. Though, that bar might be different, for- 

 

Joe Bugni  53:03  
Sure. 

 

Aaron Nelson  53:04  
For the judge, and the prosecutor, and me, but it just, as you said, it kind of raises everybody up in some way that we can model it over time.

 

Aaron Nelson  53:12  
Yeah, I think there's also the aspect: if you're a jerk, you can fake it for a day or two. 

 

Aaron Nelson  53:18  
Yes. 

 

Joe Bugni  53:19  
But the jury's not gonna- they can tell. 

 

Aaron Nelson  53:21  
Three days. Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  53:23  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  53:23  
You- we know the real Joe Bugni.

 

Aaron Nelson  53:25  
That's exactly it. They know. And hopefully they like me because I'm- I'm being me. 

 

Aaron Nelson  53:32  
Sure. 

 

Joe Bugni  53:32  
You know, it's not like these fake errors, where they're like, "Oh, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm so thankful you were here". You know, they over exert it. They just, they know that- I mean, I- look, I pour water for anybody, right? You know, like, but like-

 

Aaron Nelson  53:46  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  53:46  
They're seeing me pour the water for the CSO, or the courtroom security officer, or my client, and they, they see me being respectful or holding the door. And they know that that's just me. And so when I'm making those representations, it's part of that. And I think Jim Mashello used to always say that he loved a long jury trial, because they got to know his sense of humor. And they got to know who he was, and they got a sense of it. 

 

Aaron Nelson  54:09  
Appreciate it. 

 

Joe Bugni  54:09  
Yeah, they appreciated it. 

 

Aaron Nelson  54:12  
And I think it does- if you're, if you're credible, you're more likely to be appreciated for your credibility over a longer period of time. 

 

Joe Bugni  54:19  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  54:20  
Because I think certainly, as criminal defense attorneys, sometimes we come in... They're giving us the side eye. Might be a little critical of us, just because they don't know any better. 

 

Aaron Nelson  54:28  
Yeah, well, I think too, like, in a longer jury trial... I remember, like, I had one where, or two, like, where you're cracking jokes about stuff that happened beforehand. Like, I remember one, I was like, I was like, we were all there, you know, when I impeached him on this and yes, I did hope that, like, you know this would have happened. We all know it didn't. Whatever it was. Or like-

 

Aaron Nelson  54:53  
You could tell stories about a shared experience. 

Joe Bugni  54:54  
That's it. 

 

Aaron Nelson  54:55  
A shared experience bonds you, you get to be their guide. You get to be their mentor.

 

Aaron Nelson  55:01  
Yeah, that's exactly it. Or you just, I'm, you know, like you have, I always, I'm big on visuals and for props, and so you have those within the trial that you're like, "Look, you guys remember this. Like, I had it. You felt it. They felt it, and we passed it around". 

 

Aaron Nelson  55:18  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  55:19  
What would he have seen in that? There were 30 of these dials. Was he looking to see if that was 3.4. Did he care? 

 

Aaron Nelson  55:26  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  55:27  
No, it's, it's 20 degrees below zero in the middle of, you know, western Wisconsin. He's just up there pencil whipping it. Because that's what every one of us would have done. Because that's what every reasonable person does at two in the morning on the top of the seventh floor of a factory, and that's just okay, because it was only a problem if it went to zero over 1 to 10, and you could eyeball that in a second. You know? Like that, that sort of, like, that's just giving the jury the credibility of, like, you're just gonna be a reasonable guy, just like my dad; just like, just like anybody else. I always try to think of my dad on the jury.

 

Aaron Nelson  56:03  
Sure? 

 

Joe Bugni  56:03  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  56:03  
Sure. So let me, let me ask you some about some clients, or some stories if your comfortable sharing some of that. 

 

Joe Bugni  56:11  
Sure, yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  56:11  
I know you had represented somebody, I think, all the way through, where you were trying to---a woman---who you're trying to present her, um, defense because of the past abuse that she'd suffered. 

 

Joe Bugni  56:25  
Sure. 

 

Aaron Nelson  56:25  
Right? And you were not allowed to do that. 

 

Joe Bugni  56:28  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  56:29  
And to me, somewhat about a sanctuary is also about the following the rule of law. And the rule of law is to just, you know, let us, let us try to tell our story. Can you tell us about, tell us about how that worked in the rule of law in that story, about getting your backstory of your client in?

 

Aaron Nelson  56:49  
Yeah, I think actually, to give the story justice is to give Craig Albee his due. He would always say that, um, when you're young, no good research is go- goes to waste. Like you, like go down every rabbit trail is- you're never going to regret it. You know you might regret it in the moment, but you will always have that research in your mind. So you'll remember Iowa V Knowles 20 years later, because you did, you became a master of Iowa V Knowles only to find out your client did get arrested, and it doesn't apply at all. And so I had a case with this client, who I was, he was in basketball prison. And I know this is a long story, but it's pretty good. And so he's in Boscobel prison, and I was too young to look up whether or not Boscobel had both a general population as well as a super max. And this is, you know, 15-20, years ago. And so he had kept on writing letters to the Kenosha District Attorney, threatening them. So he'd get brought out of out of prison, go to county jail. He's like, "This is amazing. All my buddies are here. I love it". So, he did it once. He got probation or concurrent time. He gets back to Boscobel. He's like, "this sucks. I want to go back to Kenosha". So, he writes another letter. And I get him, and he's like, "Look, man, he's like, you can just get a free trial out of me. I don't care. I'm doing 67 years. Go for it, kid". You know? And I was like, "All right, cool. Let's get ready for this trial that I can never win because you gave a confession and all this stuff", right? And I've always thought you should never give up. Like, the game that's in front of you is not the game that you have to play, right? Like, you can actually redefine the rules. And so I always try to be as creative as possible. And so there I was, like, "what if he had to?". And I'm big on like, taking walks and processing and it's never the first idea or the second idea. It's usually the 28th that's actually any good and even then, that might not be a good idea, but it's one you can run with. And so I said, "I'm-I'm going to raise the necessity defense, because the conditions of super Max are so bad that it was going to deteriorate his mental health to such an extent that the harm was greater than what he had done". And I- so I went back- 

 

Aaron Nelson  59:04  
He needed a break. 

 

Joe Bugni  59:05  
He needed a break. He needed a break because- and it was right after Judge Crabb had kind of shut down Boscbel and said, like, "this is how terrible it is. It's an Eighth Amendment violation", and you have the right to avoid an Eighth Amendment violation, whether it's being eaten, you know, served to bears or being in Boscobel. So I wrote up this, this great brief. Did all the research. It was like, you know, I learned all about the defenses and all these other things. And so I wrote it up, and I'd gone out to the jail to visit my client. By then, they knew not to put him in Kenosha County. They put him somewhere else, but I did this great job for him, and I'm getting ready to file. I'm, you know, I don't remember the deadline, right, but it's probably like a Friday or maybe it's a Monday. I got a file. I'm going over the affidavit, and I'm like, okay, you know, is this true. Is all this true? And, you know, the lights are always on. He said, "Man, you can never sleep". And I went out off of, like, the Eighth Amendment compilation, you know, all the things that they were complaining about. 

 

Aaron Nelson  59:06  
Oh, sure. 

 

Joe Bugni  59:06  
And it's all. Always buzzing. He's like, "I can hear it right now". And, you know, go through all the things that they complained about. I was like, "and you never saw another, you know, human being?". He's like, he's like, "Man, I would never see anybody except for, like, when I'm playing spades, maybe, like, playing a little ball". And I was like, "Oh, oh... he's, he's delusional". And so I went through and asked another question. I was like, "So you're always eating alone in your cell?" and he's like, "maybe, like, no, why would I eat alone? Like, I mean, I got my crew", and I was like, "but, but we- you're in the- what are you talking about?". I'm still, like, totally lost. Now, we had gone over this defense and this affidavit many-a-time, so it wasn't like he didn't know where it was going. And he had, like, you know, "Mr. Benjamin, you know, like, you're in the, this is part of what it was in the in the Super Max". He's like, "Super Max?". He's like, "Man, I'm on the GP side". And so I was like, "but our whole defense is that you were going to be in, you're in the Super Max", and we and he's like, "Oh man, you would have got blown up". 

 

Aaron Nelson  59:06  
He took it pretty well. 

 

Joe Bugni  59:06  
He took it pretty well. I was like, I was like, "I wrote a 40 page brief. I've been here every weekend for like, the last- like, my wife's gonna leave me". He's like, "Oh, man, I don't know what to tell you". I was like, we have gone over this. He's like, "I just wasn't paying attention. You were so into it". So, so I couldn't file that right, but I always held on to it. 

 

Aaron Nelson  59:06  
Those seeds get planted. 

 

Joe Bugni  59:23  
Yeah. And so many years later, I had a young woman. It was a tragic case. She had been beaten by her boyfriend just terribly. She- she's given me permission to use her name, so Margerie. So Margerie, I got her case and got to know her, and I heard the story, and they were offering her, I think it was seven, and they wouldn't- it was a mandatory minimum, because she had robbed a couple places with a gun because her boyfriend had beaten her so badly and just said, like, "you gotta, you gotta give me this money, this fake payback". I got into her phone, and I couldn't believe the text messages and the story of what the abuse that she had suffered, both the physical, the psychological, the sexual abuse was just horrific And I took it as an opportunity to raise the Better Women's Defense. But the problem was: federal court, you're not allowed that. Like it was- there was a circuit split on whether it was allowed in federal court. And so I think three circuits had gone one way, three circuits had gone the other way, and the Seventh Circuit had punted. So the- or the Seventh Circuit, said it was, I think maybe even said it was closed. It was closed off. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:02:46  
I thought, yeah, they said it was closed. Like there was a previous case that tied your judge down.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:02:50  
Yeah, yeah. So I used that as an opportunity to develop the defense. And then I ended up- the judge said, "No, I'm not going to revisit it. I can't overrule the Seventh Circuit". Sentenced her, which I thought was, you know, you gave her 30 months. And then I did the appeal. It was, it was great. It was a great experience. I worked with a clinic that they wouldn't give me an amicus brief because they were sure I was going to lose, and they thought that it would ruin the law for other cases. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:03:18  
This the clinic out of Pennsylvania? 

 

Joe Bugni  1:03:20  
Yeah, yeah. And they- and so then I got a buddy of mine: is this lawyer named Ryan Walsh who works at this firm, Eimer Stahl, and he's a great writer, appellate lawyer, and he's always willing to, like, go and fight for the underdog. He's one of the greatest human beings. So he wrote an amicus for me, and a local group signed off on it, and we went for the Seventh Circuit. It was, it was great, like, Albs is just the tremendous mentor he is, that my wife had a baby, like, four days before oral argument. It was a little bit like, you know, you never know when a baby's gonna come, yeah, and, and so he took over and argued the case, and we won, and she was able to stay in the country. She had immigration consequences too. Got time served. In fact, she was, she was at my house listening to the oral argument when we had it. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:04:11  
Wow. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:04:11  
Yeah, yeah, and she was, she had that we- but it was tremendous. But that case actually, so I'll be candid, it's less about that case than it was a relationship with her. I remember moving her into her apartment when she got out of jail, and we were going through her boxes because she had been in the abusive relationship, and then got arrested, and all her stuff got boxed up by her family, and they moved it out of the apartment with a guy, and I'm there in her kitchen, and we're unpacking, and she takes out a blouse that still is blood stained from the beatings, and just holding her and realizing, like, just these are the horrors that, you know, people want to think of Battered Women's Syndrome in a very analytical sense. You know, they're like, "oh, it happens over there, and, of course...". But when you're holding the blouse, when you're seeing the pictures, when you know what, this happened, what happened to this woman... it takes on a whole new gravity. And it's really like, why we fight. Why we fight so hard. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:05:11  
Yeah, absolutely. The fact that you're so involved with your clients, right? I know that that's wonderful. 

 

 

Joe Bugni  1:05:19  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:05:19  
There are times, at least for me, that sometimes I can do that and sometimes I can't. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:05:25  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:05:26  
And where those boundaries should be- varied depending upon where I'm at and what's going on. How have you navigated that? Because I know you've, you've held blouses in their house. You've had clients come live with you. You've spoken at their weddings, you've spoken at their funerals, you've been there for the birth of their children. How, how do you manage all of that and still be the super lawyer that you are? Is that why you're the super lawyer that you are?

 

Aaron Nelson  1:06:02  
No, no. I'm not well. I mean, to be honest, like I don't, I don't have the boundaries down really well. I think there's, there's a part of me that- I was, if I hadn't gotten married, I would have been a priest, and I would have been just a very humble, probably would have been, like, a Franciscan priest and just served in the inner city of Milwaukee, and that's just kind of like, my personality. I- I tend to think that the Lord has given me the grace to have the victories I've had, more to feed my ego than it has been to like what is truly important to me. And so, like, the boundaries are like, the relationships are what endure, and that's what I really think. At the end of the day, nobody remembers the best brief. Nobody remembers those things. But the people remember, like, how I love them, and the relationships are really formed in a sense that- I've always tried to- you know, there are people I haven't been able to connect with. That does happen. But I always try to love people as the other. You know, like I want to will their good, and I want to do their good. That they're not a means to my end. And that's, that's the thing I struggle with in private practice, with charging them money. You know, like before public defender, I could always, I was always completely altruistic. But the way I- the boundaries, I try to always treat them as other, and so I see them struggling with- I've been richly blessed materially. So, like, if somebody needed money or something on their books, like it wasn't a huge thing to me and- and even when I didn't make much money, we definitely went paycheck-to-paycheck of the public defender, I always knew we were way better off than the guy who was, you know, living in his mom's garage. You know, as far as the other sacrifices go, I tend to have always approached it as as though it was my son or my sister or whoever it was, and my dad, you know? I alluded to it before, but like his own struggles, he could have been out on the street if it weren't for my mom. And so I can always see within my- my clients, my own father. He's a felon, and so like, how would I have wanted someone to treat him, and what that would have done? And I think you've seen this. I know you've seen this, is that the difference between success and sometimes a relapse, or whatever it might be, is often the smallest of acts. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:06:58  
Oh, absolutely. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:07:08  
Yeah. And so, like I often, I would, early on in my career, I would always give my clients my cell- I still give it to him, but I would always give him my personal cell. I still remember, like Joey Coleman, and what was his name? I can't remember his name. I can see his face right now. Victor. I'd be like, every night I'd be like, "Man, you can do it. Don't smoke weed tonight", you know, like, "just watch Netflix or whatever, play some video games. Blah, blah, blah, Joey, you know, so proud of you. You know, like, this is day 14, or whatever it might be". And I still try to, like, if I'm, if I'm driving, like, driving here, I'll just call a client and just, you know, try to talk to them and everything like that. And my kids have gone to- when the client lived with us. Then they, of course, my kids saw them, but I think my kids have often, or always seen my clients as an extension of our life, yeah? And so, I just try to look at them as people that the Lord has put in my life to love.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:07:09  
Yeah, that's beautiful. Do you- does that overwhelm you at times?

 

Joe Bugni  1:07:34  
Yeah, yeah. Totally does. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:07:34  
Yeah?

 

Joe Bugni  1:07:34  
Yeah, really hard, yeah.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:06:02  
I mean, because I just it, I've done it to a micro-level of what you're talking about, and it can just be overwhelming, especially in the- the after- 

 

Joe Bugni  1:07:34  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:07:34  
Is sometimes easier than the during, because, at least to me, like I represented a client a couple years ago. Innocent, accused of this- his child died. And it was, it was a medical issue. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:07:34  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:07:53  
He was found not guilty, and it was a wonderful thing. But during that, I was afraid- I didn't have the capacity sometimes to make promises, not that we should make promises, but to just provide some of the relief that I think he needed and he wanted, and I didn't blame him for needing or wanting it, but in that moment, I was just like, I can't carry that promise. It would just crush me. I need to deliver the promise, but I couldn't carry it. And it's something that still, even to this day, like bothers me about myself that I couldn't do but I also know rationally, like, we can't do that. Do you- is there a distinction between the during and the after?

 

Aaron Nelson  1:08:20  
I mean, I'm sure there's a distinction. I think, you know, like, there- it is crushing at times, you know? I mean, I had a nervous breakdown. I think you're gonna go and ask me about that later on, but I think when I'm carrying it in the midst of it, I try to be as honest with people. I often try to take walks with all my clients, because I don't want to meet in a conference room or sterile office. I just go for a walk around Madison, and we just process as human beings. I do- I make most of my clients read. I give them, like, a reading list of things that they need to read. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:09:31  
Do they follow up? 

 

Joe Bugni  1:09:35  
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Almost all of them, yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:09:39  
That's great. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:09:44  
I usually tell them I'm going to do terrible job if they don't do it. I can't guarantee what's going to happen if you don't read, "Chop Wood, Carry Water", but that's actually one of the ones I make them read. I actually always start with Viktor Frankl - "Man's Search for Meaning". 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:11:25  
Oh, yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:11:28  
And so I'm like, "Look, you just got to read the first 80 pages". And almost to a tee. Everybody's like, "man, if you can live through that with a positive attitude, I got this". 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:11:50  
Yeah, yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:11:51  
And, and then from there, it's either "Chop Wood, Carry Water" or "The Rhythm of Life". And then I just go like, you know, we usually talk about the books and everything else, but there is a distinction. I think sometimes you're right, like it-depending on different times in my career, it's so overwhelming and I can't do it. I also try to really empower the people around me to have that relationship. And so I try to break down the boundaries between intern or secretary or paralegal and lawyer and client, so that they, too can share in that. And sometimes they really need to hear from Trinity, yeah, or, or the, you know, like, you know, you've been really blessed with Mac and Emma. Both of them walked with clients, just as my surrogate. And they, you know, they were able to do that. But it is, it can be overwhelming. I have failed, of course, you know, with some people, where I really wished, you know, I carry deep within me, you know, my clients have killed themselves. Like, those are wounds that, like, you're just like, wow, those are really hard. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:12:53  
Yeah. I mean, I think you we started today. You showed me a quote from your phone. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:12:58  
Yeah, yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:12:59  
You know? That we all carry within us a cemetery that we go to pray with some regret and bitterness about our failures or when we were less than. I'm sure it was more poetically put than I just said, but that's something you carry with you?

 

Joe Bugni  1:13:15  
Oh, absolutely. I think every lawyer does. I know Jessa, before she passed, I thought some of our best conversations, and I think most lawyers, if they're honest, I mean, some, some will go and self medicate to it, right like that's why you numb yourself to it. But there are times where you need to revisit the quote. I can't remember exactly it is right now. But you're going to have those, those times that they're so hurtful, you know, where you failed your client, and you either- the jury got it wrong, the judge got it wrong. You don't know why it is, but those, those break you, you know, and, yeah, but you got to get up like the next- you're gonna-  you got another round. And just sometimes, as a public defender, your guy gets 30 years, and then, you know, an hour later you gotta go and do a DPA. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:14:05  
Yeah. You know, some of the- you don't want to treat your clients as ends to your means. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:14:12  
Yeah, absolutely. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:14:13  
Objects in your- or the 80th strike when we need 100. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:14:17  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:14:17  
But sometimes the benefit is, is like, my client tomorrow doesn't care that I lost today. He needs me. He needs me now. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:14:25  
That's it. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:14:26  
I don't have time to mope. I don't have time to pout. I don't have time to like, there's some self reflection, but it's, it's all about: get up on your feet. You got to get back in there.

 

Joe Bugni  1:14:36  
That's it, man. I think about it as a relief pitcher in baseball. Like, I'm like, look, I just got you you gotta have to have the- or a quarterback in football, like you gotta have the shortest memory possible. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:14:45  
Yeah, absolutely. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:14:46  
But you also have a deep down inside, and some of those hurt worse than others. I just, I told the client, just when I was at the coffee shop down here. I was like, "Look, I will, I'll wipe out your fee. He's in arrears". But I was like, I was like, I was there, but you got to let me take you out for dinner, because I feel like both of us need to process this. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:15:05  
Sure. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:15:05  
You know, like, and just have that. So I do think that there is- to get back to your question: there is an aspect of all of us that we have such secondary trauma and so many wounds that we have to revisit them. Otherwise, we often also don't grow from them. You know, like you grow from your wounds where you can go back to them and say, like, I wish I was better on that. Or I often am like, "Well, I'm gonna do a different process for this". 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:15:34  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:15:34  
Or "I could have prepared better. I should never have assumed this", and I tried to do a post-mortem for almost every failure. But there are certain wounds where, like, Gary Blair, I think about Gary Blair probably once a month, and I that that is like the true motivation, yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:15:51  
Yeah. I mean, you- the scars are going to be there, but if you don't work them, they're going to you're going to have less mobility. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:15:59  
Totally, you're totally callused. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:16:00  
Yeah, yeah, and you can't do that. You know that you mentioned Jessa, or a friend of both of ours. In 2020, there was an award at Wachtell named after her and Donna Kuchler and Kathy Stilling. And at the time, I'd given Jessa a book. And the book I gave her was this book, "Dictionary of the Undoing" by by John Freeman and- and she just passed here in early August. There's a quote in here that I want to read to you. It's at the end. It says, "As we arrow through our days, the best part of that experience can be removed from us by aerodynamics. It is almost as hard to carry hope as it is to carry pain. Experience so often tells us to let hope go. It is difficult to ferry love through a world that takes such pleasure in the vicious denial of it to people considered less than". That, that there where it says "it is almost as hard to carry hope and the difficulty of ferrying love through this world" and so often, that's what I think of is us. That's to me, the weight of what we do is we're, we're carrying hope, not only for ourselves, but we're carrying somebody else's hope. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:16:47  
Yes. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:16:47  
And, oh shit, Joe, yeah. There are times that I'm just like, "Man, I don't, I don't know if I can carry that". 

 

Joe Bugni  1:16:47  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:16:47  
Right? Is there something that you find meaning that helps you to carry that hope?

 

Joe Bugni  1:16:47  
That's a great question. I wish you would have let me prepare for that question. So I think is really like there's two parts to that answer if I'm being truthful. Is like one: I've often looked at, I think that you'll get lots of defense attorneys who just hate the system. You know, they're like, I would burn down every prison in America and da da da. And I got a lot of respect for those people. I tend to disagree. I think there tends to be a lot. I tend to frown on bank robbery. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:16:47  
Arsen's not something you really encourage.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:16:57  
Yeah, yeah, kind of like a well-ordered society. I don't even like texting while driving, but I also like- I go to work every day, and I take the hits, not because I hate the government, but because I love what's next to me. Like I love that person that's next to me right? As far as carrying that hope, I think that we have a privileged place within society and- and we get maligned. Of course we get maligned, right? I think we probably have throughout all of history. But when you think about like the great people who have done our job, right? You could go back right to the founding. You could be like, "Wow, Alexander Hamilton and John Adams", whether it's the Boston Massacre or, I forget who did Zisner's trial? You know-

 

Aaron Nelson  1:19:03  
I thought it was Hamilton, right? 

 

Joe Bugni  1:19:04  
Yeah, no, Hamilton did the first murder trial. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:19:06  
Okay. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:19:06  
Yeah. But like, I think Zisner, the printing guy who gets espionage. You know, you had these great patriots who had no problem standing up from that, William Scott Stewart, you know, Lord Erskine, Abraham Lincoln, all of them did criminal defense, and they understood not just the role, and I think that's always diminished. When they're like, "Oh, you have an important role". It's like, I don't have an important role. I have an essential role, and I also have a privileged place. Right? When you look at and Judy Clark, and you look at throughout all of history, Cicero, like all of those people are defending, you know, human beings from the power of the state and like the fury of the mob, and they're willing to go there, well, we're carrying that hope of that other person in such a privileged way. Now to your real question was, how do I do it? I think part of it is having that perspective, that I believe in a practicing mind, and that I'm often detached from what I'm doing, and that I can examine it meaningfully. And I often look at it as the most important thing that's going to resonate is not the result. Clearly, I have to cure the cancer. You know that you got to do the surgery, right? 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:20:18  
Yep. Yep. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:20:18  
That's absolutely true, but it's how I've made that person feel, that within this whole sphere of everybody screaming at them, everybody wanting, you know, like, to take away their liberty and everything else that they had within that one true advocate, one true paraclete, one true friend. And that's what I tried. That's how I tried to focus that on. And so like it is a manifestation of my faith. Maybe it's also like a little bit of just being a good dude, which is not as you know, like, like, as high and mighty as being like this, this guy who wants to go to heaven, but like, just being a good dude, and I want to be a friend to that person. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:20:55  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:20:55  
And I tend to think that, almost to a T, every one of my clients would call me their friend, and so long, and when you know what their word "friend" really means, and what the etymology of it is, and what it truly stands for, then you can look at it and say, "Yeah, I have the right perspective, like I have the right mindset that, like I'm coming here as an advocate, as a friend, not as a mercenary, as a hired gun, and I may not always, as a friend- I may not always approve of the choices you did". 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:21:26  
Sure. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:21:26  
Like, clearly, but like- 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:21:28  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:21:28  
"But as a friend, I will fight for you, and I'm going to fight for you the whole time, and the whole time I will recognize your dignity enough to tell you the truth". And that's often the way I've carried that is to have that, I think, broaden the aperture and see correctly, my relationship with them is not just curing the cancer, but walking with them through this very terrible place. And I thought it was put poetically, like it was the aerodynamics, the arrow of our day not being affected by the aerodynamics of our day. You know, the arrow of our call to the aerodynamics for a day. That's exactly it. Like the arrow of my day is to walk in relationship with another human being who I've been privileged to serve. And the aerodynamics are that I'm not going to let you know my ego, my- my own aspirations, my own fears, everything else, get in the way of my own desire for money, whatever it might be, get in the way of that true and mighty call. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:22:22  
Yeah, and so, I mean... I've got ego, I have aspirations for money, I have all those, but it's that fear. I mean, and in some ways, you know, the fear of not being good enough, the fear of not being able to help your friend, the fear of not being able to protect your friend. I mean, it's that fear that- I'm very proud that thus far, I've got up every day and I've shown up again, you know. But it's, it's not easy. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:22:51  
Yeah, it's definitely not easy. I think, you know, you have to. I mean, do you want me to talk about the breakdown or what-

 

Aaron Nelson  1:22:57  
Yeah, I mean, that's, you know, I mean, I didn't ask, but I will. I know, I know. I know, at some point it became overwhelming for you, and you had others in your own recognition, realize, like I need to take a pause here. I need to, I need to do something different. Can you tell us about that?

 

Joe Bugni  1:23:17  
Yeah, absolutely. Look, I, I was unhealthy in many ways, right? Like, and I still am even to today, like, I- this week. I was like, "Okay, I got to get this brief done, even though I need to exercise and I need to do the things that I need to do", right? I had my prayer time, but I didn't do what I was supposed to do. Like, okay. Well, two days, you know, like, you miss one day. That's nothing. Two days, it's the beginning of a new habit. Well, I'd missed, like, maybe eight years. I wasn't doing the things I needed to do that were going to help me. And I've been very forthright about my breakdown, mostly because I think that most people are on the verge of one, and like, they're not willing to and nobody. When I did have my breakdown. It was, it was a great moment. So, so what happened was, we had thought my son was going to be blind, and his head had formed, but the brain was still growing, and so, like the effect of that was going to be blindness, mental, mental, or delayed mental, delays- I can't remember the correct term nowadays- all these other problems, lifelong. And so I just repressed it, you know, like, "look, I just got a soldier on. It's the pandemic. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta remove this cancer. I gotta remove this cancer. I gotta remove this cancer". And I just worked and worked. And I remember, I was at it. We were- won a big case that Albie had won it. And I was there at the party, and I saw what a 14 month old, or 18 month old is supposed to be able to do, and my son could do none of that. And just something cracked. And I remember, like driving. It was driving to my parents house, and I started crying. That's not right. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:24:56  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:24:57  
Let's just push that down a little bit deeper. Just like Ricky Bobby, "put it down just a little bit deeper". Waited, like three weeks, and it was just like a Friday afternoon, and I was just in my park- in my driveway, and I just started crying. And it had been a difficult day in court, but nothing, you know, unheard of. Told my wife something's not right. And then by Sunday, it was just the flood gates were open. And I realized I was, I was- so this is kind of back to your point, Aaron, about the fear and the caring. I had this one client, Nori. Balaru Nori. Completely innocent. He was facing a 30 year mandatory minimum. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:25:31  
Yeah. He was an immigrant. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:25:34  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:25:35  
It was- right? 

 

Joe Bugni  1:25:33  
Yeah. He was from Afghanistan as part of the Afghan boat- or airlift. Wrongfully accused of rape, 30 year mandatory minimum. We'd then be sent back to the to the Taliban-controlled Afghanistan. And I was completely convinced of his innocence. That and a few other cases were just weighing me down. And I was supposed to go back-to-back. It was going to be a- I might be making this up. I might be wrong. Mac would know it was like a two week trial and then an eight week trial right after that. Yeah, but then, like, and that was just, yeah, just, you're working all the time, and just terrible. And I just broke. I just broke. I couldn't do it. And Albs was incredible. He gave me, you know, like, two weeks off. He's, like, you could take two months, two years. I wouldn't care, like, whatever you need to get well. And I just took the time to- I worked out every day. I lost a good 14 ounces, and I went and did optimal work. I learned about optimal work, which I've written about, but I also just sort of recalibrated. And I just said, I'm going to be home at 5, maybe 5:30. You know, I'm going to put away my cell phone. I'm going to do what I need to within the confines of the day I have. And I really started to focus on mindfulness and recalibrating my goals, where I was caught up in the ego of the job. And even though I've spoken like with, I hope, great passion, but also with like, you know, higher aspirational goals. At the time, it was more mercenary of, like, I want that award or I want that recognition. And I wouldn't say it to like, a perversion of it, where I was, like, that was all I was doing, but like- 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:26:21  
Sure. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:26:21  
It was motivating.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:26:24  
I mean, and at the end of the day, I mean-

 

Joe Bugni  1:26:30  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:26:30  
Sometimes what- if that's what's motivating you to get the results for your friend, for these other people- 

 

Joe Bugni  1:26:44  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:26:44  
I mean, there's a- it's, it's parallel play, right? And so it maybe some of that is just, that's what we can rationalize. Maybe it's even me right now rationalizing that.

 

Joe Bugni  1:26:44  
Well, I mean, I think you always have a little bit of mixed motivations. Mine were a little bit too far over, if I'm being honest, right? 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:26:44  
Okay, okay. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:27:02  
And I just, I gave a very serious examination, sort of like Solzhenitsyn says, you know, like where he goes through and just looks honestly, just brutal honesty. And I said, "I don't like what I see. I like some things, right? I don't like others". And I still fail, like I still fail in relationships, I still fail in presentation, I still fail in many levels, in many regards, but I gave myself that honest examination, and then I tried to rebuild. And I just rebuilt by going out with the attorneys who I respected most. And I'd say that, almost to a T, there were a few that were like, I don't know if you're gonna be able to come back, like, bro, you broke so bad that I don't think... You should go and rethink a new career. And I was like, "Whoa".

 

Aaron Nelson  1:28:26  
In a world in which our entire premise is based on redemption and-

 

Joe Bugni  1:28:30  
And, well, it wasn't, I don't think it was that it was like, it wasn't, you know, like I engaged in anything scandalous. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:28:36  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:28:36  
Right? Like I didn't, I don't even drink, but-

 

Aaron Nelson  1:28:39  
Was it more of just like, they were more worried about your fragility?

 

Joe Bugni  1:28:43  
That's it. Yeah, they were like, "Dude, you're too fragile. You can't, you can't go back into the furnace". And they talked about that, like, guys will talk about touching the stove and you're not able to touch it again, right? 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:28:52  
Sure. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:28:52  
Like it hurt too deeply. That haunted me a little bit, you know? And I was like, ''Oh my gosh". And the best thing that ever happened to me was: I came back and I had this case I did not want to do. I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is a heavy case". It was in the seventh circuit. And so I tried, I asked everybody in the firm to do it for me and to a T they're all like, "oh, I would love to, but unfortunately, I have these T-Rex arms, and I cannot pick that up". And I think Albs would have done it. Albs would have definitely done it, but I didn't want to impose upon him. I think he was getting ready for trial. And so I had to do it. And I walked in there thinking- reverberating in my brain was, "you're too fragile. You're too fragile". I was like, "I don't think I am, but maybe I am, maybe I am". And the first question, I was like: Boom. Right back. And I was, I was like- and it was just so much stronger, and I was in such a better place, but so that's the story. But the real lesson of it was not like, "oh, great, that's great success", but it was that I realized the focus had to be different. And part of that's just middle age where you realize you can't work like you used to. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:28:53  
Yeah. 

J

oe Bugni  1:29:39  
And also that what you used to value, you shouldn't value, and that what you need to value is that which is closest to you. And so I really tried to focus on the relationships and seeing that the bonds were more important than anything. And that's part of with like, the friendship, but also the friendship with my colleagues. And I tried to pour it out, myself out, into my interns, into my, you know, like my other co-workers, and sometimes with great success, sometimes not. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:30:00  
What do- you use the word fragile and strong. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:30:01  
Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:30:09  
What do you think about that? I mean, you're too fragile. I mean, there's, as you were telling the story, there's a part of me that's, maybe it's just the contrarian to me and says, maybe all of us need to be that friend. Maybe all of us just need to recognize the fragility of all of us. And you, as you often are, we're a leader in that regard. And I'm not poking, but I mean, like, that's part of who we have to be. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:30:35  
Yeah, I think you have to be honest, you know? I think that's when you put on the false errors. You know? I think that's a real big- that's a problem within our profession, but I think even within the world. No, I think it was good to be fragile. It's good to be open about it. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:3:55  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:30:55  
I think, you know, I never shy- I made a choice. I can't remember what day I did it or when it was, but I was like, "I'm not going to hide from this. And, in fact, I'm going to write about it". And so I wrote that article. And I was like, "this is a good thing to be honest with people". And I remember, you know, at first, nobody really knew why I left, you know, they were like, "Bugni just didn't show up for work for two weeks". I mean, Craig, you know, said, like, "he's got some medical thing". And they're all like, "oh my gosh. Is it cancer?". I was like, "No, actually, I had a nervous breakdown". Everybody was like, "Whoa, whoa. You just"-

 

Aaron Nelson  1:31:23  
Yeah, I mean, were people- I mean you even, even when you say that now, all kinds of images, I'm sure, come into my head. Maybe the viewers, or watchers of, you know, the listeners of this, will come into it. I mean, you're, you're leaning into that word. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:31:36  
Yeah, it was, I mean, look, I cried. I cried a ton, and I cried over and over again, and even like talking about it, like, those first days, I've never wept so hard. And I remember going out to see a priest friend of mine, and he told me, like "you're a-you should see yourself as almost as like, a sculpture, and that you're constantly being refined. And the Lord is taking a, you know, like a little chisel to you, and sometimes a sandpaper, and you're conforming to the image that you're supposed to be". He just took a sledgehammer, like a very big chisel, and that piece just broke off. And I remember being like, "Whoa, that piece hurt". 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:31:37  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:31:44  
And it was sort of like, what- that which, I think I aspired to, which was- and I don't even know it was, like, sort of an amorphous aspiration of- of grandeur, because I wasn't really thinking money. Like, I remember the first time, like, like, when I, when I decided I had to leave the Federal Defender because we didn't have any money, I went out and, like, said, like, "Hey, I'd like to go join a firm". And they were like, they told me what it was and I was like, "What?!". When I went home to my wife, she was like, "No way!". Like, we could go out to dinner, like, once a week. This is incredible. I was like, "Yeah!". It wasn't like, this sense of grandeur, this sense of accomplishment. But it was something maybe I didn't even know what I was aspiring to, but it was something other than sincerity. And that's what I really tried to come to. Is like, I'm just really coming at things from a place of sincerity and really a place of love, and so long as I'm- those are my two motivations, and I'm driving towards that, then the success is really defined by those two characteristics, not upon any wall or anything. I don't keep anything on my walls. I don't, do, you know, like, a picture my kids drew, it's an alligator. But like, you know, other than that, like, there's, there's not much. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:32:36  
Yeah, yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:32:36  
But that's been the reorientation. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:32:39  
How much community? Just to- when you had that breakdown, and to have a community within your office, obviously, you have family and you have faith, but just to right now talk about the criminal defense community... How important was that for you to have that to to lean on, to reach out for to-?

 

Joe Bugni  1:34:00  
You know, it-

 

Aaron Nelson  1:34:01  
Or was this so personal in that moment that it-?

 

Joe Bugni  1:34:04  
No, I want to say like- so I've really struggled in some ways of recent with, like, the criminal defense community. So I think there were definitely people that I could rely upon. Like Nate Otis was excellent and Craig Albee was just the greatest man has ever lived in, my- you know, not greatest, but he's a very great man who was a great influence upon me. There were others who didn't know what to do, you know? And I think that revealed a lot. But then Kathleen Quinn was tremendous. She was the one, actually. She was like, "Look, you got to be like the stoics. You got to remove the cancer. But ultimately, you have to decide: what is it that you can do within this job, you know? And you have to live outside this job in some ways". And I was like, "Oh, that's really helpful". Guy Cardimony and a few others like, I recall going out with them and getting that, but I've never been to Jenna's, which is a popular bar. And you know-

 

Aaron Nelson  1:34:56  
You're not a drinker. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:34:57  
Yeah. But also, like, I think my- I hope any lawyer who knows me would know me as the kind of lawyer that you could always call for a walk. That would spend like, two hours with you to talk it through. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:35:10  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:35:11  
But my sense of humor doesn't really lend itself to Jenna's, and like, I don't really have the same cool stories and everything else.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:35:16  
I think there's a lot- I mean, just, whether it's Jenna's or any other bar, they tend to be egocentric stories, right? Or, or, in some ways, stories about our clients as objects of something, as opposed to humans.

 

Joe Bugni  1:35:33  
That's right, that's right. And, like, there are some excellent lawyers that go to Jenna's, like Tracy Lencioni in Madison is just a tremendous attorney, and Myrlie Josty. So, like, it's not to that, but like, I just never really fit in as well and I kind of always wished I had, but the criminal defense community- I think what was greatest was, I remember Jessa going- because she and I were in the same building- going down and talking to her and Nate. And there was no judgment. And that was what was cool, was- there was just empathy. And when there's a place of empathy, it really doesn't matter where it's from, but like, you know that you're seen and you know that you're received in that way. But I think there was also, like, this deeper sense where I- the criminal defense community, I think was in many ways glad. I don't mean like, glad and like, a schadenfreude kind of sense, but like, glad that it did happen to me, because I think most of them are on the same brink. You know, like-

 

Aaron Nelson  1:36:29  
Well, that's what I worry not, not in the sense of glad, but just in the sense of, like, "Oh shit. That happened to Joe, that could happen to me. Like, oh, like, that's- it could be a wake-up call. It could be just, I'm burying my head in the sand, even, even deeper. I'm trying to distance. I'm trying to like, "Well, this is why it happened to Joe. This is why it happened to Joe. I'm different", but we're all like, right on that fucking edge. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:36:56  
Right on that edge, man. And so many people have reached out, and I've gone out for coffee with them, or taken them out for long walks or dinner, where it was beautiful, like even, like district attorney's wives had read the story, and like lawyers in Detroit and California and, you know, had read the article, and they were like, "That's me". 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:37:18  
That's wonderful. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:37:18  
And like, "Can you talk to me about this? Or what did you do?". And so I think, like, in some sense, it gives permission to people to talk about, like, how sad they are, yeah, and then also to have somebody else who they know- I'm not going to judge them. And instead, I'm going to be like, "oh man. Like, just a big hug". 

 

Aaron Nelson 1:37:34  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:37:34  
Big hug. Like, I wanted to get a t shirt that says "Everybody just needs a hug". Which I do feel like that's, like, so true.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:37:43  
Yeah, absolutely. You know, you said you went down and you were in the same offices as Jessa and Nate, and it was a place you didn't feel judged, right? And I feel like that's one of the strengths that some of us within the criminal defense, you know, it really is a place where you're- the person that's coming in next to you- it's, it's almost a completely different mindset than everybody else in the criminal justice system, because we're actually not judging them, right? I'm just like, once you get to that space that you can do that with the person next to you. it helps me in the rest of my world. I don't know. I don't know without this job- I feel like I can do that in my job. And because I can do that in my job, I am such a better human outside of my job, because that's what my job has taught me. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:38:33  
Absolutely. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:38:34  
Right? Absolutely so, to close what- what do you think our community of criminal defense, if there was one- again, I know it's not a bit of advice that you can just do a one little thing- but what's the last message you'd like to share with our community?

 

Joe Bugni  1:38:52  
That's a tough one. Anna did not prepare me for that one. You know, I think it goes back to- well, twofold. If I can give you two instead of one. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:39:00  
Absolutely. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:39:01  
One is to find a mentor. I think there are out there. You know, I think some people, there is a great poverty of it, mostly because people don't want to invest in it. But I think go out and try to find them, you know, go find the Mike Cohens, the Steve Myers. Go find the Steve Hurleys. And just go and find somebody that you can invest in and who will invest in you. I think that's number one. But there's a great line by I think it's Socrates, or Plato, because Socrates didn't write, but he's like, you know, "Spend your time reading the works of others so that you can gain quickly and easily what they fought so difficultly for". And it really comes down to continual improvement through reading. I'm always amazed how many criminal defense attorneys don't read. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:39:47  
Oh. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:39:47  
Tell me about it. What do you-

 

Aaron Nelson  1:39:51  
Yeah, no. I mean, I think, you know, there's obviously there- we're surrounded by by books here because, I mean, we're in a library. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:39:57  
Yes. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:39:57  
I love books. You know, you'll be getting some books on your on your trip out of here, and the criminal defense books, I think, are essential. But just reading, you know, just reading novels. I mean, I love nothing more than to go home on a Saturday and sit down on the couch and, you know, read a couple of hours in a book. Just take me away into another world. Get yourself inside the shoes of another human being. I mean, that's where you learn empathy. Yes, that's the best way to learn empathy is to read, and that's what we need more than anything I think in our job, is to like- empathy, to live, see, hear what other people have to say in their life.

 

Joe Bugni  1:40:42  
And other people have dealt with the same struggles you and I have. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:40:45  
Oh, yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:40:45  
Other people have had nervous breakdowns and difficulties and transitions and financial woes, and criminal defense attorneys have and priests and social workers and everyone have borne the burdens of a broken society. Right? I know that there's a great book called "The Art of Advocacy", and- 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:41:04  
It's right over here. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:41:05  
Oh, great. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:41:06  
It's right- 

 

Joe Bugni  1:41:06  
Oh, right there. Alright, yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:41:07  
You, you, you recommended it to me and, and in honoring the mentor, I read it. It's fantastic.

 

Joe Bugni  1:41:16  
Like, there's this great line in there about reading, you know, and about Martin Littleton, who had been like, you know, the great- the Clarence Darrow before Clarence Darrow. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:41:23  
Sure. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:41:24  
And the guy it was, it was Littleton's mentor who wrote that book. Striker was Littleton's mentor or mentee. And he says, I forgot the exact line, but he lived in two worlds, you know, the- he lived within the lives of New York City every day, and in the pages of Les Miserables. For there, he found, like, you know, empathy and humanity at its best and at its worst. And you're like, "Whoa. Like, here's a guy who's at the top of his game. He's rereading Les Mis to understand more and more of who we are". And that's, I think- so I think for every everybody I mentor, I try to get them to read books, because you're going to get a little bit better, a little bit better. And it's sort of, if you look at it as continual improvement, and that you're trying to constantly get a little bit better, the victories come when you start doing, you know, you start reading your witness, and you're like, "oh, I can cross on that". 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:42:21  
Yeah. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:42:21  
Or you start thinking about it as "McCarthy on Cross" or "Fearless Cross-Examination", or McComas on Trial Strategy, and you're like, "Okay, I got to think of this case differently", because if you keep on staying within the rut of you and the other lawyer you're office-sharing with, or you- and the two people that you happen to brainstorm with. That's such a small universe.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:42:41  
We gotta take risks. We got to- we got to take risks in our world. We're going to lose all the time. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:42:45  
Yes. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:42:46  
And the only way that- to learn those new paths is to read about the old paths.

 

Joe Bugni  1:42:50  
Yeah. I mean, I hope, like, you do one with Keith Belzer. Because, like- 

Aaron Nelson  12:54  
Yeah, absolutely. 

 

Joe Bugni  1:42:55  
Like, I still remember going up here. I was thinking about Belzer. I was telling Caitlin about Belzer and how at NCDC, as a law clerk I was there. I remember him giving the the talk on his Hondo, or something like the dog, you know like- 

 

Joe Bugni  1:42:57  
Oh, wolfin'.

 

Joe Bugni  1:42:59  
Wolfin'. That's it, yeah.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:43:04  
Yeah, circumstantial evidence. And- 

 

Joe Bugni  1:43:04  
Oh, man, powerful. But that was a guy who read, and I remember him talking about him using theater, using all these things, and he was growing beyond this, the confines of what the law imposed upon him, what, like the legal education, the expectation of just a dutiful lawyer, like, that's a true artist. Like Belzer is a true artist. Albee is a true artist, like they're growing beyond that, and they're able to do something that is truly remarkable, because their aperture has grown, because their skills have grown, because they've read deeply.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:43:49  
So let me just end on this. You'd said reading, right? And so let me just read to you from "Abraham Lincoln and the Structure of Reason". And this is a letter that President Lincoln wrote to somebody. "If you wish to be a lawyer, attach no consequence to the place you are in or the person you are with, but get books. Sit down anywhere and go to reading for yourself. That will make a lawyer for you quicker than any other way". 

 

Joe Bugni  1:44:20  
Amen. Yeah. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:44:21  
Thanks for coming. Thanks for bringing all your books that you've read and everything in your head and, more importantly, everything in your heart, man.

 

Joe Bugni  1:44:33  
Thank you very much. Thank you for all you do, and I'm looking forward to the great success of this podcast.

 

Aaron Nelson  1:44:35  
Absolutely. Thanks again.

 

Joe Bugni  1:44:36  
Thank you. 

 

Aaron Nelson  1:44:46  
Thanks for listening to Sanctuary in the Jungle. This episode was brought to you by Nelson Defense Group and MadeDaily. We'll see you next time for another episode. Until then, stay strong and carry the hope.